Publishing Armageddon

American Vision ^ | 7/24/2006 | Gary DeMar

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Events in Israel are viewed by millions of evangelicals as a sure sign that the rapture is near. ***

Didn't they say that in 1967?
1973? 1988? and now?

People, OPEN YOUR EYES! God alone knows when the END TIMES will come, not some "prophecy" hack!

[RightWhale]

There is evidence people can foresee about 3-5 seconds sometimes. Beyond that things get a little vague.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

*** he completely ignores historical interpretations as if no one ever tried to understand these verses before CI Scofield ***

I quit using Scolield's study bible years ago. I have gone back to a KJV Cambridge reference bible without notes.
KJV because I was raised with it and understand it. I also use other modern translations, but NO "STUDY" BIBLES!

[xzins]

I don't think your arguments are at all significant as to why I chose that date.

I would choose to be a Christian, because He chose me.

[PetroniusMaximus]

This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."

The existence of the State of Israel is proof enough for me that we are in the last days - though I will decline from setting a timetable.

[xzins]

the earth be converted to Christ,

I know you're not, but that sounds extremely universalistic to me.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Every time I hear about the third temple being built, I cringe. Jesus Christ is the third temple."

Dr. E,
Now hows the Antichrits gonna sit in "Jesus" and proclaim himself to be "God"????

(greeting to you - btw)

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***The existence of the State of Israel is proof enough for me that we are in the last days - though I will decline from setting a timetable.***

One living in the 4th century could just as easily claim that the last days had begun when Julian the Apostate let the Jews begin to rebuild the Third temple. He got killed and the uncompleted third temple burned down.
Christ didn't come back then either.

[xzins]

Personally, I prefer the fuffillment of the Lord's intention for the earth.

Whatever anyone thinks is good now must realize how the Lord can make it infinitely better.

[topcat54]

The existence of the State of Israel is proof enough for me that we are in the last days - though I will decline from setting a timetable.

Assuming for a moment that the modern state of Israel bears some resemblance to biblical Israel (which I contend it does not), then all you are saying is that Christ may or may not return at any time soon. Israel has been around for almost 60 years. It could last another 60, or 200, or anything is possible.

The fact is we have been in the "last days" since the time of the apostles (cf. Acts 2:17; Heb. 1:2). So stating we are in the "last days" based on anything other than that fact is somewhat meaningless.

[Blogger]

You, sir, are puffed up in your own conceit. And, again, you are trying but failing to mischaracterize our point of view. Jesus already has the victory and success or failure is measured in His eyes, not ours.

Science fiction? Is that where you obtain your eschatology from?

[Blogger]

Hear hear!

[Lee N. Field]

As usual, we find an anti-premil stance rather than a pro-XYZ stance.

It might have something to do with all the name calling from the dispensational side. It's defensive.

[topcat54]

Personally, I prefer the fuffillment of the Lord's intention for the earth.

Whatever anyone thinks is good now must realize how the Lord can make it infinitely better.

This traditionally what the church has called the eternal state.

Even in the premill millennium there will still be death and suffering for many. There will still be sin for many.

Even the premil needs to get to the eternal state for the true fulfillment of Christ's intention for the earth.

"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea." (Rev. 21:1)

[topcat54]

I know you're not, but that sounds extremely universalistic to me.

If one has a pessimistic view of the future, then one might take a dim view of the "universal" sounding verses.

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." (John 12:32)

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

The whole world is the object of Christ's salvation. All those who have been predestined to eternal life will be saved. And this will ultimately be a great multitude which no man can number. (Rev. 7:9)

[topcat54]

These Scriptures have not come to pass in full yet.

If I came from a literalist, futurist perspective, I would agree with you. But I do not.

The writers of the NT certainly did not take a literalist, futurist perspective when it came to OT prophecies, esp. regarding Israel. They generally applied those prophecies to their own days, and viewed Christ and His church as the fulfillment of the promises to Israel.

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel." (Heb. 12:22-24)

"for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Gal. 4:25,26)

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name." (Rev. 3:12)

"Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ." (Gal. 3:16)

"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:29)

"For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom. 4:13)

[ladyinred]

I do not believe in a pre trib rapture, but I do believe Jesus will return again someday. If it isn't soon, there will be little left for Him to return to.

[Blogger]

Horse hockey! When the Bible is speaking symbolically or metaphorically then it is rather obvious it is doing so. Paul was being categorically blunt when he contrasted the Jew and the Gentile in Romans 9-11. And guess what, Bubba, God isn't done with Israel (literal Jewish Israel) yet.

[Blogger]

There is enough "name calling" on both sides. I was just accused of being on the "other side" (i.e., not on God's side).

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Whatever anyone thinks is good now must realize how the Lord can make it infinitely better.

I'd like a small rewrite...

Whatever anyone thinks is good now must realize how the Lord can will make it infinitely better.

VICTORY IN JESUS: THE BRIGHT HOPE OF POSTMILLENIALISM by Dr. Greg Bahnsen

And here...

"The Prima Facie Acceptability of Postmillennialism" by Greg L. Bahnsen

"...postmillennial appeals to New Testament passages like the kingdom growth parables of Matthew 13, the apostle John’s teachings about the overcoming of Satan and the world (e.g., John 12:31-32; 16:33; I John 2:13-14; 3:8; 4:4, 14; 5:4-5), Peter’s Pentecost address (Acts 2:32-36, 41), Paul’s declaration that all Israel shall be saved (Rom. 11:25-32), his resurrection victory chapter in I Corinthians 15 (esp. vss. 20-26, 57-58), the statements of Hebrews 1-2 about the subjection of all enemies to Christ in the post-ascension era (1:8-9, 13; 2:5-9), and numerous passages from Revelation, notably about the vastness of the redeemed (7:9_10), the open door for missionary triumph and the Christian’s reign with Christ over the nations (2:25-27; 3:7-9), the submission of the kingdoms of this world to the kingdom of Christ (11:15), and the utter victory of gospel proclamation (19:11-21)..."

"...Jonathan Edwards, was a key figure in the Great Awakening and one of the most notable theologians and philosophers of American history. He once said, “My mind has been much entertained and delighted with the scripture promises and prophecies, which relate to the future glorious advancement of Christ’s kingdom upon earth.” In his "A History of the Work of Redemption," Edwards maintained that the kingdom of Christ must step by step displace the kingdom of Satan in the period between Christ’s resurrection and the consummation of all things. This will happen through preaching, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. The worldwide extent of Christ’s rule is guaranteed, he said, by “many passages of scripture that can be understood in no other sense.” In the coming period there will be advanced peace, holiness, and material prosperity. Christ’s kingdom shall be universal:

"The visible kingdom of Satan shall be overthrown, and the kingdom of Christ set up on the ruins of it, everywhere throughout the whole habitable globe. Now shall the promise made to Abraham be fulfilled, that “in him and in his seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed”; and Christ now shall become the desire of all nations, agreeable to Haggai 2:7. Now the kingdom of Christ shall in the most strict and literal sense be extended to all nations, and the whole earth . . .. What can be more universal than that in Isa. 11:8, “For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” . . . So it foretold in Isa. 45:22, that all the ends of the earth shall look to Christ, and be saved. And to show that the words are to be understood in the most universal sense, it is said in the next verse, “I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.” So the most universal expression is used. Dan. 7:27, “and the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High God.’ You see the expression includes all under the whole heaven."

Edwards was quite moved, as well, by the undying hope of David Brainerd that the banner of Christ would unfurl around the globe, joyously drawing all nations into the church and bringing prosperity to the gospel. Charles Chauncy proclaimed that Scripture promises that the kingdom of Christ shall be spread to all nations of the earth (1742), and Nathaniel Appleton declared “the knowledge of the Truth shall spread, and fill the Earth, as the Waters do the Seas.”[92] In 1740 Thomas Prince delivered a message entitled “The Endless Increase of Christ’s Government,” and David Brainerd’s friend, Samuel Buell, would speak of “the many promises, which have respect to the magnificent Enlargement, Light, Purity, Glory and Felicity, of the Divine Redeemer’s Kingdom, in these last Days.”[93] The American Calvinists were staunch adherents, then, to a scriptural optimism about the history of Christ’s kingdom on the earth..."