Posted on 08/18/2006 10:52:01 AM PDT by NYer
Recently a Protestant friend asked me why Catholics do not include, "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, now and forever," at the end of the Our Father. I really do not know. Can you help me?
The "For thine..." is technically termed a "doxology." In the Bible, we find the practice of concluding prayers with a short, hymn-like verse which exalts the glory of God. An example similar to the doxology in question is found in David’s prayer located in I Chronicles 29:10-13 of the Old Testament. The Jews frequently used these doxologies to conclude prayers at the time of our Lord.
In the early Church, the Christians living in the eastern half of the Roman Empire added the doxology "For thine..." to the Gospel text of the Our Father when reciting the prayer at Mass. Evidence of this practice is also found in the Didache (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles), a first-century manual of morals, worship and doctrine of the Church. (The Didache also prescribed that the faithful recite the Our Father three times a day.) Also when copying the Scriptures, Greek scribes sometimes appended the doxology onto the original Gospel text of the Our Father; however, most texts today would omit this inclusion, relegate it to a footnote, or note that it was a later addition to the Gospel. Official "Catholic" Bibles including the Vulgate, the Douay-Rheims, the Confraternity Edition, and the New American have never included this doxology.
In the western half of the Roman Empire and in the Latin rite, the Our Father was always an important part of the Mass. St. Jerome (d. 420) attested to the usage of the Our Father in the Mass, and St. Gregory the Great (d. 604) placed the recitation of the Our Father after the Canon and before the Fraction. The Commentary on the Sacrament of St. Ambrose (d. 397) meditated on the meaning of "daily bread" in the context of the Holy Eucharist. In this same vein, St. Augustine (d. 430) saw the Our Father as a beautiful connection of the Holy Eucharist with the forgiveness of sins. In all instances, the Church saw this perfect prayer which our Lord gave to us as a proper means of preparing for Holy Communion. However, none of this evidence includes the appended doxology.
Interestingly, the English wording of the Our Father that we use today reflects the version mandated for use by Henry VIII (while still in communion with the Catholic Church), which was based on the English version of the Bible produced by Tyndale (1525). Later in 1541 (after his official separation from the Holy Father), Henry VIII issued an edict saying, "His Grace perceiving now the great diversity of the translations (of the Pater Noster etc.) hath willed them all to be taken up, and instead of them hath caused an uniform translation of the said Pater Noster, Ave, Creed, etc., to be set forth, willing all his loving subjects to learn and use the same and straitly [sic] commanding all parsons, vicars, and curates to read and teach the same to their parishioners." This English version without the doxology of the Our Father became accepted throughout the English-speaking world, even though the later English translations of the Bible including the Catholic Douay-Rheims (1610) and Protestant King James versions (1611) had different renderings of prayers as found in the Gospel of St. Matthew. Later, the Catholic Church made slight modifications in the English: "who art" replaced "which art," and "on earth" replaced "in earth." During the reign of Edward VI, the Book of Common Prayer (1549 and 1552 editions) of the Church of England did not change the wording of the Our Father or add the doxology. However, during the reign of Elizabeth I and a resurgence to rid the Church of England of any Catholic vestiges, the Lord’s Prayer was changed to include the doxology.
The irony of this answer is that some Protestants sometimes accuse Catholics of not being "literally" faithful to Sacred Scripture and depending too much on Tradition. In this case, we see that the Catholic Church has been faithful to the Gospel text of the Our Father, while Protestant Churches have added something of Tradition to the words of Jesus. Nevertheless, the Our Father is the one and perfect prayer given to us by our Lord Jesus Christ, and all of the faithful should offer this prayer, reflecting on the full meaning of its words.
It is also amazing that some Christians believe that God created the universe out of nothing, but for Him to turn bread and wine into His body and blood is beyond belief.
I didn't hijack the thread...One of you Catholics brought up meeting the Lord at the Eucharist...I responded...
Now be honest about it...Any one that can read can see the context of the chapter/verses...It's written as a metaphor...
Your church ignores the biblical context...You chose to believe the church and ignore the bible...You seem to have trouble admitting that...
Lord, forgive him.
MOST Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly.
I offer Thee the Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity
of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world,
in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifference
by which He is offended. And through the infinite merit
of His Most Sacred Heart, and the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners.
Amen.
Thanks. Offering a prayer is a much better response than trying to get blasphemers to understand they are causing offense.
"You chose to believe the church and ignore the bible...You seem to have trouble admitting that..."
Please let me clarify that I am neither "admitting" nor declaring that. Of course the Catholic Church does not "ignore" the Bible. The Church is THE interpretor of the Bible.
"If it's really Jesus when you stuff him into your mouth, is it still Jesus a couple days later???"
The Eucharist remains as the "Real Presence" until it is completely disolved. In the human body, that is about 30-45 minutes.
What's with the potty-reference?
Is this the level of maturity in the snake handling world?
So you're not only obnoxious in your attempted hijacking of threads, you're also invading and desecrating Catholic parishes?
I can't tell you how offensive the statement in italics is.
"Myserium Fidei"...the Mystery of Faith...the Eucharist...the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ave Verum Corpus natum
de Maria Virgine.
Vere passum immolatum
in cruce pro homine:
cuius latum perforatum
aqua fluxit et sanguine.
Esto nobis praegustatum
in mortis examine.
O Iesu dulcis!
O Iesu pie!
O Iesu Fili Mariae. Amen.
Hail, true Body, truly born
of the Virgin Mary mild.
Truly offered, wracked and torn,
on the Cross for all defiled,
from Whose love-pierced, sacred side
flowed Thy true Blood's saving tide:
be a foretaste sweet to me
in my death's great agony.
O my loving, Gentle One,
Sweetest Jesus,
Mary's Son. Amen.
That's because the bible's clear that there's going to be a rapture (which could happen before the sun comes up)...And after the church is gone in the rapture, there's going to be tons of people left...They will still have an opportunity for salvation but under different conditions...And, a share of the bible was written for that group...
But as concerning once saved, always saved,
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Of course we know that your church does not believe these verses (and scores of others pertaining to eternal security) but the fact remains that if I (and you) are saved, we are sealed forever...And the seal will not be broken...
Not at all...I was curious how your church handled the obvious...Surely, I'm not the only person who ever thought of that...
Where do you get all these ideas like "of course your church does not believe this..."? None of your quotations are in conflict with the teachings of the Church. The Church accepts all those books of the Bible, in addition to a few YOU do not accept (Maccabees, etc.)
What is this obsession with the Bible combined with such a disrespect for the Eucharist? Guess what...
The Mass was celebrated by the early Christians and the apostles; the Sacrament of the Eucharist was honored BEFORE THE NEW TESTAMENT had even been written! Christ founded a Church, not a book, guided by the Holy Spirit.
After the Last Supper, Mass was initially referred to as "the Breaking of the Bread", then later "Agape" and eventually today, "Eucharist" which means "Thanksgiving".
You might be the first person! I've never thought of that once, nor have I ever heard any such reference. Never has such a debased thought crossed my mind, which is why I gave a serious answer to your question, about the dissolving of the Host.
There's another article posted on here today about the popularity of Catholic-bashing plays, which often include blasphemy and obscenity. I hope you are not of that mindset, but that you were asking a serious question in good faith.
Thank you so very much for offering this prayer of reparation.
I hope all Catholics will join me in praying for the conversion of our seperated bethren, especially those who in their pride would insult the very the Lord whom they claim to love.
You do not tell the truth. Of course the Church believes these verses. That is why the Church includes them in the Canon of Scripture and that is why you have them in your abridged Bible. Just because the Church does not believe a Johnny-come-lately's novel intrepretation doesn't mean the Church doesn't believe the verses. I'll stick with the interpretation believed and taught by the Eastern Orthodox and the 22 Catholic Churches for 2000 years, as provided by the Holy Spirit.
Adoro te devote, latens Deitas, quae sub his figuris vere latitas: tibi se cor meum totum subiicit, quia te contemplans totum deficit.
HIDDEN God, devoutly I adore Thee, truly present underneath these veils: all my heart subdues itself before Thee, since it all before Thee faints and fails.
(wish I could add the audio)
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