This may as well be public, imho. Given my mood today, I started out replying privately. I don't think DieHard will have any problem with this being publically posted. If he does, he can ask the mod to remove it and that'd be fine with me. If DieHard is Aussie, that might explain a lot of the difference and perceived difference.
However, of the Aussies I saw in Taiwan, I'd be cautious about assuming too much on that score. Their bravado in many cases seems authentic and well earned. But the holes in the masculine soul of many is also evident. That's certainly true of South Africans I knew transplanted to Australia.
= = = =
I mean no disrespect to Dr Laura, but for her to say that most men have forgotten how to be men and are merely male (or to that effect) is a shrill exaggeration at best and a gross insult if taken at face value.
True, there is a huge problem with youth today. I get to see this on the street in my role as a Guardian Angel. Two themes, in each case, become apparent:
1) Mom does not know and/or does not care where the youth is, and
2) Dad is either in Gaol or is unknown.
Feminism has taken its toll in some families, and Dad has been displaced and replaced, relegated to some inconsequential scrap-heap somewhere as a superfluous influence.
But most families are not like that. And most men are not like that. Most of us have spines, and most of us have hind legs that we occasionally stand up on when riled. Most of us enjoy testosterone as much as we enjoy alcohol.
But most families are not like that. And most men are not like that. Most of us have spines, and most of us have hind legs that we occasionally stand up on when riled. Most of us enjoy testosterone as much as we enjoy alcohol.
Dr Laura's position is shrill and alarmist. Men have forgotten how to be men? C'mon! Don't kid a kidder -- nobody could seriously take that premise in earnest at face value.
Some men may have forgotten: these are ball-less wonders who run off on their families and leave their kids without a dad and leave mom in the lurch. Such specimens deserve what opprobrium we as a Society can muster, and in the maximum quantities permitted by Law and good taste.
But that is not the majority of men. Most of us are decent guys with secure personalities.
= = = =
I don't know the solid statistics on such. I do know the following.
1. Dr Laura is not fabricating stuff up. She hears endlessly of this problem from the women who call and some of the men.
2. I have looked for/at solid males, good fathers in families most of my 60 years of life--well before I became a psychologist. I suppose it depends on one's definition. I've been very disappointed to see the relatively low percentage of what I'd call solid, good fathers with secure identities etc.
3. It is still true that most men live quiet lives of desperation stretched beyond their training and often beyond their psyche's, values and coping skills to do things well in their primary relationships and their jobs.
4. It doesn't take much for me to scratch the surface of most men to find deep rooted and raging insecurities that leave them exhausted managing; covering up etc. Often it makes them brittle and presenting a surface arrogance and bravado that's harsh to cruel.
5. In Taiwan, amongst the leading captains of Western Industry--they were men in the sense that they were serious leaders in their professions and great achievers/over achievers on those fronts, in those arenas. They were above average on those scores compared to most of the men in a range of churches in California, Washington State, Oregon and New Mexico where I observed such.
6. However, those same captains of industry in Taiwan were typically significantly to grossly incompetent and significantly to grossly insecure in their primary relationships. Their relationships with their children were dreadful. They typically tried to out power everyone around them to avoid anyone hinting that they were less than perfect etc.
7. They routinely provoked their children to wrath from an early age. They rarely had time for relationships escaping into overwork chronically. Their wives felt and were largely deserted to fend for themselves and manage the kids. The lavish money and comforts available didn't seem to help much at all.
- - - - -
8. It is conceivable that your sample population is skewed in an opposite way than the majority of people we counselors see.
9. Nevertheless, I'd guesstimate that in the average BETTER church that I've been in--in the States and elsewhere--I'd guesstimate that 60-85% of the men have self-esteem, identity, masculinity, insecurity, false pride etc. issues of significant depth, breadth and intensity. And, that their primary relationships suffer greatly therefrom. Essentially, I believe that Dr Laura is right. She has detected a dreadful trend hazarding our society.
> If DieHard is Aussie, that might explain a lot of the difference and perceived difference.
(Big grin) It's OK -- lots of people make that mistake. I'm a Kiwi. My Mom & Dad are Canadian.
> I don't think DieHard will have any problem with this being publically posted.
Nope. No problem at all: this is a great thread and a topic worthy of spirited debate. What say you?
> 2. I have looked for/at solid males, good fathers in families most of my 60 years of life--well before I became a psychologist. I suppose it depends on one's definition. I've been very disappointed to see the relatively low percentage of what I'd call solid, good fathers with secure identities etc.
May I venture a good explanation for this? Few solid, good fathers with secure identities are likely to seek the aid and company of a psychologist? They're more likely to be taking their son to Aikido class, or to be watching the Rugby, or even hoisting one-or-three down at the Pub with their mates while the kids are doing piano lessons.
> 7. They routinely provoked their children to wrath from an early age. They rarely had time for relationships escaping into overwork chronically. Their wives felt and were largely deserted to fend for themselves and manage the kids. The lavish money and comforts available didn't seem to help much at all.
Most of the Lads I know see it this way: your kids give you one opportunity -- just one -- to share in the wonderful gift that is their childhood. You either take them up on that offer, or you don't. They will grow up regardless. You will either be in for a wonderful time full of magic and mystery and plenty of laughs, or you will miss out. Most of us, given the choice, try to opt in for the wonderful time.
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of men who are lousy fathers: there are. I am saying that it is a huge stretch to confidently assert that most men have forgotten how to be men and are just merely males be default.
*DieHard*