Posted on 09/09/2006 3:04:19 PM PDT by Calvin Coollidge
The way my priest explained it, if you use contraceptives for any reason other than not being financially able to have more children, then you are comitting a sin.
or health reasons.......
or health reasons.......
That is a matter of economy, a prerogative of the bishop. If he detremins that the Catechumen was not sprinkled but rather immersed, chances are they will go with chrismation. If there is any doubt whatsever, the individual will be baptized.
This, in case it isn't obvious, is clearly the sort of situation in which the Catholic Church would Baptise conditionally. Again, we're not trying to "fool God", much less insult Him by implying that He doesn't know what's what. We're reminding ourselves of the limitations of our own knowledge and reminding ourselves and any witnesses that the Sacrament of Baptism is a one-time-only Sacrament, that it leaves an indelible mark on the soul.
Another issue is that the RCC routinely accepts non-Catholic baptisms as valid, even in cases where there was absolutely no sacramental intent. This may not be what is supposed to happen but it is none the less common. Most of your priests are only concerned with water and the Trinitarian Formula. My experience is that the use of conditional baptism (common before Vatican II) has become somewhat rare today.
Really? If you really believe that, then you should be Baptising, Ordaining, Marrying, etc. any and every convert from whatever background. Elsewise, your words say "Nope: no Grace there!" but your actions say "well, yes maybe there's Grace there after all ..."
RCC probably has retained at least on some level the grace of The Church.
< Sigh > So close, and yet so very far away. What was that about miracles?
Oh, yes: Pray for them. Unceasingly and unsparingly.
Eternal Father, please heal your Church of all schism, error, pride, and mutual misunderstanding. Grant that we may be again One Church. We ask this through your Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ.
I suppose this is a sort of "your mileage may vary" situation ... most Catholic converts, in Parishes of which I've been a member, are received during the Easter Vigil Mass ... generally about 1/2 are Baptised conditionally, 1/4 Baptised, and 1/4 not Baptised. I'm not sure of the backgrounds of each group.
By 'contraceptives', was he referring to NFP?
ANY form of birth control. (other than abortion, which I don't consider a contraceptive)
Nitpick: I see that sort of phraseology frequently from Orthodox on this forum. If the term "valid" isn't Orthodox, what term is? Please, let's at least learn to speak each others' language, here. You apparently make a distinction between "a Baptism" and "a ceremony that sort of resembles a Baptism, but isn't one" ... what is the Orthodox term for the latter?
You do remember I am Orthodox, not RC? :)
+Kallistos is a fine, holy man. Unfortunately, he has become the "go to" hierarch for Westerners with questions about Orthodoxy and his positions many times are not in accord with current Orthodox thinking. I suspect this has to do in part with his Anglican background.
Orthodoxy is not fixated on hard and fast rules when it comes to the day to day life of the laity. As we have discussed before, in Orthodoxy there are two ways of dealing with a given rule. One is called "akrivia" which is a strict application of the rules. The other is called "economia" which is like giving someone a pass on the rule if enforcement of the rule will do more damage than good. It is first last and always the province of a bishop, though a bishop may delegate that authority to spiritual fathers which is likely what +Kallistos is talking about. By the way, economia has no meaning in the context of enforcing dogma.
Your choice of the contraceptive issue as an example of why Orthodoxy needs an all powerful pope demonstrates one of the very basic differences between the way Orthodoxy looks at the role of a bishop and the way at least popular Roman Catholicism does. Its a big difference, NYer.
You do remember I am Orthodox, not RC? :)
I think you're wrong there. I believe the Moscow Patriarchate has said they do, and I think the EP has probably said something very similar.
(AB) Really? If you really believe that, then you should be Baptising, Ordaining, Marrying, etc. any and every convert from whatever background. Elsewise, your words say "Nope: no Grace there!" but your actions say "well, yes maybe there's Grace there after all ..."
It is the teaching of the Orthodox Church that Chrismation heals all wounds and fills with grace that which was lacking provided that there was a right intent on the part of the heterodox ceremony. Thus when someone who underwent a baptismal ceremony which attempted to do that which Orthodoxy does is received by Holy Chrismation the empty ceremony is repaired and filled with the grace of Holy Baptism. The same is true of other sacraments provided again that an Orthodox intent was there and in the case of Mysteries which can only be conferred by those in Holy Orders that the heterodox confession maintained the form of apostolic succession and an Orthodox understanding of it. Thus Holy Chrismation could not fill with grace a Protestant minister's ordination but could do so for a Roman Catholic priest's. In many cases (again depending on where they are coming from) converts do indeed need to be remarried in The Church as a pre-condition to be admitted to Holy Communion.
"Nitpick: I see that sort of phraseology frequently from Orthodox on this forum. If the term "valid" isn't Orthodox, what term is?"
AB, my post 79 started with a quote from CC's post 76. His words not mine. That said, "valid" probably isn't a term an Orthodox person would use. The issue is whether or not a person has received, in one of the many "ecclesial assemblies", to use the Pope's terminology, one of the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments) of The Church. Assuming for the moment that such Mysteries can be imparted by any ecclesial assembly, and I think The Church believes that in some instances they can be, then the Mystery of the ecclesial assembly is effective to transmit God's uncreated grace. The reason that the word "valid" probably wouldn't be used is because some may feel it bespeaks a certain legalism which is foreign to Orthodoxy. In the end, and on this particular issue, I doubt the terminology means much as far as it goes, though it may imply fundamental differences about how we perceive what the sacrament in question "does" to us.
There is no confusion here. Either a person is baptized in the eyes of the Church oir (s)he is not. The Nicene Creed says "I recognize one Baptism for the remission of sins." We repeat this every Sunday.
The Orthodox Church determines if a particular Catechumen was baptized or not. If it is determined that he or she was baptized but that the Mystery of Baptism is incomplete, it is completed by Holy Chrismation (anointing with oil).
The Orthodox Church has been practicing this for more than the last 1600 years. By the way, the same formula (Hoy Chrismation) is applied not only to Oriental Orthodox converts, but to Arians. It is a formula for those who once belonged to the Church but became heretics. For historical and political reasons, at one point, the Catholics were denied Holy Chrismation (confirmation) and re-baptized. Some still do, depending on how an individual received baptismal Mysteries (sprinkling or immersion).
For those who have never been in the Church (i.e. Protestants), Baptism is almost a given, since they are considered never to have been baptized (i.e. received any Mysteries, even if deficient) for all the good theological reasons stated by Calvin.
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