Posted on 09/20/2006 10:14:32 AM PDT by Buggman
Jude: You say "Catholic" like it's a bad thing.
I'm as critical of the Romanists as the next Protestant, but they didn't get everything wrong. They still worship the Trinitarian God.
And as Topcat pointed out, the "holy catholic church" exists on earth and is made up of all true believers. And for 2,000 years the vast majority of those believers have held to a Sunday sabbath at the beginning of a new week, a new covenant and a new life in Christ.
Absolutely true; they didn't "ignore" them; they said that if you kept the Jewish sabbath, it was "an admission that [you] have failed to receive the gift of grace". That was 200 years before Constantine, BTW.
See my post #495.
I'll give you five bucks for your tagline!
Well somewhere along the line you switched the topic from "sabbath observance" to "synagogue worship".
Sabbath observance can take place in a synagogue, in a house, or down by a river:
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
No synagogue. No jewish ceremonies, but coming together on the sabbath.
The question has always been whether or not the sabbath was observed by Christians. The answer is of course it was.
Paul believed in the sabbath of God. To state otherwise goes against his word in God inspired scripture:
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Jesus believed in the sabbath, created through him and for him:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Again, a prime opportunity for Jesus, God in the flesh, to state to his followers that the sabbath is no longer in effect. Does he? Nope, he AFFIRMS the sabbath by reminding us that he IS the LORD of the sabbath. He is reminding them, and us, that it is HIS sabbath, his creation.
And as previously pointed out, there is not one hint of controversy in scripture about a decision to NOT observe God's sabbaths.
You have tradition and culture on your side. Fortunately I have a commandment of God, the testimony of Jesus Christ, the testimony of Paul and scripture on my side.
Then again, maybe I don't. Have you ever reflected on the fact that it's the Catholics, perhaps more than any other Christian group, who believe in sanctifying all of time? You can call us Sunday worshippers, and we certainly believe that that Sunday Mass is not optional, but most Catholic parishes have Mass every day, and all Catholics are encouraged to hear Mass every day. That includes Saturday.
Not to mention the sanctification of time by the celebration of the Divine Office (aka the "Liturgy of the Hours").
Christians aren't called to be just Sunday worshippers. They aren't called to be just Saturday worshippers, either. "Pray constantly," Christ said.
Campion: Yes
That a way to Testify, brother! It would be nice for those of us debating you to know exactly what your position is. Since I am in the "sola scriptura" crowd, I know that the Scriptures say Sabbath only. What crowd are you in. Capmion? Please, profess you faith, Campion, for all to see. Sabbath scriptural or created by the Apostolic succession?
As we all are , my good friend. [Worshipers, not nuns, LOL]
Christians aren't called to be just Sunday worshipers. They aren't called to be just Saturday worshipers, either. "Pray constantly," Christ said.
We were told to "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy" and it was to be our sign to differentiate us from the Nations [Exodus 31:17]. Yes, we all pray constantly, every day....but God still maintains his Holy Sabbaths and we are to celebrate them.
Seven fifty?????
"There is nothing in the language restricting remembering Him to Pesach."
Indeed, I think that the practice of frequently partaking (at the Agape meals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist#The_Agape_feast ) can be clearly inferred from Paul's instruction to the Corinthians.
"Anyone who eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be behaving unworthily toward the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone is to recollect himself before eating this bread and drinking this cup; because a person who eats and drinks without discerning the Body is eating and drinking his own condemnation. In fact, that is why many of you are weak and ill and some of you have died"
(1 Cor 11:27-30).
To begin, we need to begin with Passover itself. Passover, though a feast of the Lord, is not a sabbath:
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
Num 9:2 Let the children of Israel also keep the passover at his appointed season.
Num 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.
Num 9:4 And Moses spoke unto the children of Israel, that they should keep the passover.
Num 9:5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.
It of course has it's origin in Israels flight from Egypt:
Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
Exo 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
Now as you know, this is a clear type of the sacrifice of Christ.
This ceremony was performed every year, once a year, on Passover....sometimes. However, Passover is so important that God said that the Passover could be taken again if someone could not take it the first time:
Num 9:6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:
Num 9:7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?
Num 9:8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you.
Num 9:9 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
Num 9:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.
Num 9:11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
Num 9:12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
So there are two times a year when God said that the Passover could be taken. BTW, this may explain why God created passover as a holy day, but not as a sabbath.
The main point is that each person took it ONCE a year.
God could have just as easily have commanded each person to observe it every day, or every week, or every month, but he didn't. It was (then) a reminder of an event that happened at a certain date in God's timetable.
Fast forward:
Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
Mar 14:19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
Mar 14:20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Mar 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Once again, we find the Passover being taken once a year. However, Jesus, the messiah, now gives new instructions about HOW to celebrate not only passover, but his death.
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this.
So the precedent for Godly remembrance of events is once a year, on the anniversery of the event. We do that today for practically all major events. Recently we had the 5 year "remembrance" of 9/11. There were public ceremonies that are not held except at the yearly remembrance. Christ is asking us to commemerate his death, on the holy day that he died on, Passover.
If you forget that some churches take "communion" whenever basically that they please, then the logical conclusion from reading scripture and understanding the holy days of God would be that the passover is taken once a year.
Now about this verse:
(KJVR) For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.
This doesn't mean "Take it as often as you want", "eat it as much as you can". If it did, then the proper course of action would be to constantly be eating the passover. It means, "every time you take it".
"The Message" puts it quite nicely:
(MSG) What you must solemnly realize is that every time you eat this bread and every time you drink this cup, you reenact in your words and actions the death of the Master. You will be drawn back to this meal again and again until the Master returns. You must never let familiarity breed contempt.
Or:
(GNB) This means that every time you eat this bread and drink from this cup you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
When the passover is not taken at the proper, God ordained time, then it ceases to be the passover that God commanded and instead becomes a manmade tradition, prone to being taken unworthily.
I hope this helps....
Thank you Douglas.....very succinct and well thought out.
Thank you diego, it was a good study and I hope it helps explain it to our friends.
You are misreading Barnabas and reinterpreting his words apart from the historical setting.
Jesus rose on the first day of the week, which Barnabas also refers to as "the eigth day". Only historical revisionists will find the ECF teaching that Jesus rose from the dead on the last day of the week. He did not. He rose on the first day, and the church universal has always recognized this fact by establishing Christian worship on the first day according to the tradition of the apostles as recorded in Scripture.
You keep saying this, but yet you cannot point to any Scripture that shows baptized Christians, both Jews and gentiles, in a Christian worship setting on the last days sabbath of the Jews. The fact that Paul was able to find a place where people gathered on the old covenant sabbath to pray does not enjoin Christians to worship on the sabbath of the Jews. We have already shown it was Paul's custom to seek them out on their worship places in order to convert Jews to Christ.
It was also Paul's custom at one point to have his hair cut off to take a vow in order to not be falsely accused by the apostate Jews. Have you made this your custom as well? Should all Chrisians cut off their hair when they take a vow?
Nowhere do we see baptized gentiles observing new moons or annual feast days of the Jews.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law
Since you are so sure that Matt. 5:17,18 authorizes the keeping of the last day sabbath, and since none of your old covenant sabbatarian friends has chosen to answer my challenge, why don't you take a crack at this list:
Do you bring your grain offering to the local priest (Lev. 2:1)?
Do you bring your tresspass offering to the local priest (Lev. 5:6)?
Do you avoid temple worship when you have a "discharge" (Lev. 15:2)?
Do you get your tonsorial fashions approved by a priest or rabbi?
Do you have your sons circumcised by a rabbi?
Do your women bring a purification offering to the priest after bearing a child (Lev. 12:6)?
Do you bring your skin ailments to the priest for adjudication (Lev. 13:4)?
Do you bring cases of adultery to a preist to be tried by "bitter water" (Num. 5:19)?
Until you can honestly answer these questions about old covenant practices, your quote of Matthew 5 to support the old covenant sabbath rings hollow.
Christians do not celebrate the passover. We celebrate the Lords' Supper on apostolic authority. That's what Paul called it after all. If he wanted to use the word "passover" to describe the gathering of baptized Jewish and gentile believers around the bread and wine, he would have done so.
Of course that would have been confusing, since God commanded that old covenant passover be celebrated by the shedding of the blood of animals. He also specified that uncircumcised gentiles were not allow to participate in the passover. (Speaking of Matt. 5:17,18, there is no command from God to allow uncircumcised gentiles to partake of the passover.)
So Paul was not so confused as modern judaistic worshippers, and he understood from the Lord Himself that what the church was doing was not a Jewish passover, but a Christian Lord's Supper, made universal and appropriate for people of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds.
"In the same way He took the cup also, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as (gr. hosakis) you drink it, in remembrance of Me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes." (1 Cor. 11:25,26)
The practice of the early church was to do this frequently, certainly more often than once a year.
"And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers." (Acts 2:42)
"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight." (Acts 20:7)
When Paul conducted the Lord's Supper in Acts 20, it was nowhere near the date of passover as far as we can tell.
"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" (1 Cor. 10:16)
It was typical of the early church that whenever they came together to receive instruction from the apostles and elders, to engage in the Lord's Supper and prayer. This is the simple pattern of gospel worship.
Christ is our passover (1 Cor. 5:7). We no longer observe in the shadowy pracitces of the old covenant, since the reality of Christ's finished work and the new covenant as dawned. We live in the age of Messish, the "age to come". We have put off the older fleshly worship forms, and worship Christ anew in the simplicity of the gospel.
Tell us how you conduct a "passover" without introducing manmade traditions like the apostate rabbis?
This is where most of your false doctrine originates. You cannot find any scripture that will substantiate this claim. It is spurious and illogical.... and can be scripturally proved to be in error.
This is where most of your false doctrine originates. You cannot find any scripture that will substantiate this claim.
"Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons." (Mark 16:9)
Mark 16 is pretty clear on the subject, unless you are predisposed by your theology to htink otherwise.
But just in case you do not believe the plain words of this text of Scripture, let's look at another:
Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. ... He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, saying, 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.' And they remembered His words. ...Without twisting the plain words of Luke, we see that on the first day of the week (lit. "the first of the sabbaths") the women arrived at the newly empty tomb. The "two men in shining garments" they encounter remind them of Jesus' owns words that He would rise from the dead "on the third day" following His crucifixion. Later in that same first day of the week (v. 13), two of the disciples have an encounter with Jesus and they recall the story of the crucifixion, and how that very day was "the third day" (v. 21) since these things surrounding the crucifixion happened.Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. ... But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened,. Yes, and certain women of our company, who arrived at the tomb early, astonished us. (Luke 24:1,6-8,13-15,21,22)
The plain reading of this text is that Jesus rose on "the third day", which happened to be the first day of the week as recorded in Luke.
There is no way to twist out of that conclusion.
And so because of these facts the universal church from the days of the apostles onward has celebrated and worshipped the triune God on the first day of the week, according to the Scriptures, not according to the shadows of the Jews.
First of all, your error is in trying to equate the universal practice of the church from the 1st century onward whereby we rightly worship the triune God on the first day of the week rather than the last day (which was the custom of the Jews) as a "Catholic" doctrine. It is not.
Some of the most vocal anti-Romanists from the protestant magisterial reformers to modern day fundamentalists are all united in first day worship based on apostolic authority.
When you can get 99.9% of all Christians to agree on something, that is probably more than a accident.
The notion that "the Papacy had indeed fulfilled Daniel 7:25" is based mainly on a poor interpretation of Daniel 7 and of whom is it speaking, to whom it is applied, and when it is applied.
And it's a poor excuse for reading the NT practices as if there we merely rabbinic Judaism Part II.
Amen.
Just curious, which of the twelve tribes are you descended from?
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