Book's Sequel Cites Explicit Evidence Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation

MEDIA ADVISORY, Feb. 22 /Christian Newswire/ -- The sequel to a book written by a former Los Angeles-based radio and television talk show host, which challenges the doctrine of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to Heaven, is now available to the public. Published by Author House, Why Christians Will Suffer Great Tribulation is the sequel to The End Times Passover, written by Joe Ortiz.

"No Christian wants to imagine he or she will be persecuted, but it will happen" stated Ortiz, who spent over 20 years researching and writing his books. Ortiz stated he provides unequivocal Bible evidence that challenges the belief system that Christians will escape to Heaven while unbelievers will be Left Behind to experience Armageddon. "Unfortunately, a large majority of evangelicals do not believe they will go through any tribulation, believing instead that God will provide them an escape through what they call the Rapture."

Ortiz said he realizes his is a minority point of view and that most Christians believe in the books written by authors who promote the Left Behind doctrine (such as John Hagee, Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, et al); but he's willing to debate those authors who promote a Premillennial, Dispensational doctrine to determine what is myth or what is true fact.

Ortiz said he wrote the books because he is concerned for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation escape to Heaven. He said his books not only provide Bible evidence to support his contentions, and clearly explain why they will be persecuted, but feels it's his duty to reach out to fellow Christians and alert them to be prepared for the eventuality of great tribulation.

The author is a former award-winning radio/television talk show host and newspaper columnist. A 23 year veteran broadcaster, Joe Ortiz has the distinction of being the first Mexican American to conduct a general topics talk show on an English-language commercial radio station. He began his broadcasting career at KABC-AM in Los Angeles in 1971. He is semi-retired but still writes for local and national periodicals and hosts three blogs.

The scripture you refer to is 1 Thessalonians 4:17, that most people use to "prove" rapture. The subject of that chapter isn't about being raptured but about where the dead are. The subject can be picked up in vs.13:

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not,
even as others which have no hope.

In vs.16 it tells us that He will descend (but this is at the 7th trump)and of course the dead are first as they are already with Him. Then comes the verse many think speaks of the "rapture".

17. Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught
up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in
the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We remain until the 7th trump and then we are changed, in the twinkling of an eye (1Corinthians 15:51-52). The good, bad and ugly all get changed when the 7th trump sounds, into their spiritual bodies.

Paul used the words clouds and air and that has been interpreted by some to show us rising into the air to meet Christ. He also used "cloud" in Hebrews 12:1 - a cloud of witnesses. He is describing a large group, as a cloud of locusts. The word air here means breath of life, your spirit. So another way to state it would be, a great cloud of us will meet Christ at the 7th trump in our spirit bodies.

The verses 15-17 are used to teach rapture (the root word of rapture is rape). Now go to where Paul explained these verses:

2 Thessalonians 2:2 Be not shaken in mind...by the letter
from us about the day Christ returns
(That would be the letter 1 Thess 4:15-17)
3.Let NO MAN DECEIVE YOU, that day will not come, except
there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be
revealed, the son of perdition.
That falling away is the great apostasy

The important thing for all of us here is to realize that Satan will come first pretending to be Christ and we can not follow him. He'll be so good at this deception that the "world will wonder after him". We must know the truth and stay a "virgin bride for Christ"

"We remain until the 7th trump and then we are changed, in the twinkling of an eye (1Corinthians 15:51-52). The good, bad and ugly all get changed when the 7th trump sounds, into their spiritual bodies." Would you show me something that verifies that contention? ... I don't believe the humane race has been transformed to spirit bodies at the second half of the great tribulation. Can you show to me scripture to verify this occurs when the Bride Groom comes for His Bride?

I THESS 4:17. Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That verse is the Bride called out by the Bride Groom. Would you agree to that explanation of the simile?

Incidentally, 2THESS 2:

Weymouth New Testament

2:1 But with respect to the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to meet Him, we entreat you, brethren,

2:2 not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled--either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us--through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here.

2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,

2:4 and exalts himself above, every so-called `god' or object of worship, and goes the length of taking his seat in the very temple of God, giving it out that he himself is God. [The abomination of desolation.]

...

2:6 And now you know what restrains him, in order that his true character may be revealed at his appointed time. [What restrains him from his true character being revealed is the presence of the Bride, and what allows him to break loose -he is on the scene in that he has made deals with the nations, but he has not yet broken loose to be revealed in his reign of terror- to break loose is the whisking away of the Bride by the Bride Groom]

"The important thing for all of us here is to realize that Satan will come first pretending to be Christ and we can not follow him"

1 Thess. 4:17, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul is just giving the order of of the calling of the church when the Lord returns first. The Lord does not come down to earth at this time but His church meets Him in the clouds (the word means atmospheric clouds. It is used 26 times in 22 verses in the New Testament for the same thing). The word used for cloud in Heb. 12:1 is used only once in the New Testament. In the air means atmosphere and is never used for "spirit". Zech. 14:4, " And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." gives the picture of the Lord's return described in Rev. 19 and 20, at the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of the millennium. There He comes to earth and brings His church with Him. Without the rapture there is no scripture to describe how the church got to be with Him in heaven in order to return with Him.

2 Thess. 2:3,"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" and 2 Thess. 2:7-9, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders," describes the church being taken out of the world (the rapture 1 Thess.4:17, not an falling away from the truth), and its effect from the witness being taken out.

The "falling away" in verse 3 is just another way of saying "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" in verse 7, otherwise you get the Holy Spirit being taken away and leaving the church to its own devices and no where in scripture is the church left defenseless.

His church has not been appointed unto His wrath, 1 Thess. 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," nor are we subject to His judgment for sin (no condemnation Rom. 8:1) but for works done for His glory, 2 Cor. 5:10, " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" so the church won't be subject to the wrath/judgment of God during the tribulation period (seals, trumpets, vials) when the Holy Spirit is no longer extant but working as in the Old Testament with Israel.

"2:6 And now you know what restrains him, in order that his true character may be revealed at his appointed time. [What restrains him from his true character being revealed is the presence of the Bride, and what allows him to break loose -he is on the scene in that he has made deals with the nations, but he has not yet broken loose to be revealed in his reign of terror- to break loose is the whisking away of the Bride by the Bride Groom]"

My interpretation of what restrains him, the desolator, is that we will know what will happen at the 6th trump, 6th vial and 6th seal. We know he comes pretending to be Christ and will not be deceived during the great apostasy - we have enough oil in our lamps and wait for the Bridegroom.

"I don't believe the human race has been transformed to spirit bodies at the second half of the great tribulation. Can you show to me scripture to verify this occurs when the Bride Groom comes for His Bride?"

There are two tribulations. The first is that of the anti-christ, the apostasy. This is the one Christians must be concerned with. It is one of love and peace - all deceit for there shall be famine and that famine is for hearing the word of God (Amos 8:11).

The 2nd tribulation is that of our Father. Jesus comes at the 7th trump, 7th vial and 7th seal.
Mark 13:24. But in those days, after that tribulation,
the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give
her light.
(this is the 2nd tribulation, after that of anti-christ)
25.And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers
that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26.And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the
clouds with great power and glory.
27.And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather
together His elect from the four winds, from the
uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of
heaven.
"Gather His elect from earth and heaven" - They have not been taken but remain through the apostasy, until he comes at the 7th trump. The elect that are alive and those that have died.

This tribulation should hold no fear for us, for those that remained. God isn't angry at us but loves us. That is when we are changed, in the twinkling of an eye.

1Corinthians 15:
51.Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
(those of us that are alive, ALL of us, will be changed)

52.In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(the last trump is the 7th)

Many will follow him, believing he is Christ (the apostasy).

"That verse is the Bride called out by the Bride Groom. Would you agree to that explanation of the simile?"

Yes, I do agree with you (1 Thess 4:17) is the bride but
that doesn't happen until after Christ, the true Christ, appears.

The quote you gave of Zech.14:4, as you said, happens at the 7th trump when He returns. Please go to:

Zech.13:8-9
8.And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
(that is die a spiritual death because they follow anti-christ)
9.And I will bring the third part through the fire,and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My People: and they shall say" the LORD is my God.'
(we will go through tough times, we will be refined)

"Paul is just giving the order of of the calling of the church when the Lord returns first. The Lord does not come down to earth at this time but His church meets Him in the clouds"

I don't agree. I think we are to remain and He doesn't come until the 7th trump. Those of us that are alive and REMAIN = those that have gone through satan's tribulation and are alive because they have not suffered a spiritual death and remain, to wait for the true Christ, at the 7th trump.

Air, as in "meet you in the air" is #109 : to breathe unconsciously..... To me that is the breath of life, spirit, not atmosphere.

"Without the rapture there is no scripture to describe how the church got to be with Him in heaven in order to return with Him."

The word church isn't mentioned when He returns so you must mean those that return with Him. Those are all the elect who have died and they return with Him, at the 7th trump.

"otherwise you get the Holy Spirit being taken away and leaving the church to its own devices and no where in scripture is the church left defenseless."

We aren't left defenseless - We have His truth, His Word and as shown in Luke 10:
18.And He said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning
fall from heaven.
(he doesn't fall until the 6th trump so He is speaking of Satan's time, his hour of temptation)

19.Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and
scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and
nothing shall by any means hurt you.

" so the church won't be subject to the wrath/judgment of God during the tribulation period (seals, trumpets, vials) when the Holy Spirit is no longer extant but working as in the Old Testament with Israel."

His wrath is not for those that love Him. As Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego came through the fire, as Noah came through the flood we too will go through Satan's tribulation but will be unharmed as long as we are not fooled into worshipping the false christ.

The Tribulation Period is not Satan's but God's wrath being poured out on the earth. The seals, trumpets and vials are God's doing and for a reason; to demonstrate to the world God's judgment and righteousness and the result is they would not repent (Rev. 9:20, 21, Rev. 16:9,11) even in the face of His sovereign power and the powerlessness of Satan and his anti-christ and prophet to stem the wrath. Believers going through the Tribulation Period are the remnant of Israel who become believers during the period and those who become become believers because of the witness of the believing remnant. That's where the martyrs and beheaded come from mentioned in Revelation.

"The quote you gave of Zech.14:4, as you said, happens at the 7th trump when He returns" No, what I said was, "gives the picture of the Lord's return described in Rev. 19 and 20, at the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of the millennium". This would happen after Rev. 16:17, "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done." There is no more mercy or grace to be given to the unbeliever; for them it is judgment and the fearful coming of the King of King and Lord of Lords with His hosts. That happens after the last vial of His wrath is poured out.

Now, the trumpet judgments and the vial judgments all take place during the period of the last seal judgment, but they are distinct and increasing in intensity and accelerating in quickness of the wrath of God.

The marriage entourage comes to gather the Bride and her 'court', then the entire entourage returns to the marriage feast location. The return of Christ where He touches down on Earth is well after the marriage feast and is the final pouring out of wrath to cleanse the Earth for His kingdom. The King and his Bride reign in that day. I THESS 4 is about the coming for the Bride, other passages address the return to set foot upon the mountain. ... And this back and forth which grows to look like haranguing is why I don't get into pre-post trib debates, so I shall refrain from further posts in an exchange. Thank you.

Thank you for your replies - I'll combine my response to both in this message. First let me say, you are a pleasure to debate this subject with. Even though we have a difference of opinion, on what we both know is a very important subject, your manner makes it very pleasant.

"The Tribulation Period is not Satan's but God's wrath being poured out on the earth."

There are two. The first is when Satan comes and most won't know it is a tribulation. He is pretending to be Christ so his deception is done in a loving, peaceful manner and the "whole world will wonder after him".
As stated in 2Thess.2:
9.Even Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan
with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10.And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them
that perish; because they received not the love of the
truth, that they might be saved.
11.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
that they should believe a lie:
12.That they all might be damned who believed not the
truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God not only allows the deceit of Satan but sends strong delusion. If one wishes to believe a lie He helps them.

I apologize if I misstated your Zech 14:4 quote. I thought we both saw the same meaning in it. My understanding is that when Christ comes, at the 7th trump all will be over in a very short time and the millennium begins.

As far as the rapture, there are many places in His word that show there will not be one. The only reason I brought up 1 Thessalonians is that is the place used by rapture teachers to promote the theory.

One place comes to mind that speaks against it, or at least that is how I read it. Ezekiel 13:
20.Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am
against your pillows, where-with ye there hunt the
souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your
arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that
ye hunt to make them fly.

What could this mean, for your souls to fly, except rapture?

Yes, I know. But when one reads revealations, it is a cyclic type of prophecy, which is why there have been many antichrists, who make themselves God and persecute Christians, and often God sends natural disasters to bring his people back.

I worry that American Christians will figure they will be "saved" from tribulation, and not be prepared for persecution and martyrdom when it comes. Worrying about the final days ignores that maybe we are merely in a small "a" anti christ movement, and will go through persecutions like Christians have many times in the past and are still suffering now.

God will give us just enough fire in His wisdom to test us and refine us just the way He wants us. Deut. 8:2-3, "And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."

But this is not done in His wrath which is what the Tribulation Period is about; His pouring out His wrath/judgment in increasing intensity and at an accelerating rate until in Rev. 16 the seventh angel says "It is done". Then the unbeliever is fixed in his rebellion and there is no more mercy or grace for them. after the third chapter of Revelation the church is not mentioned until 19 and the marriage feast. the Tribulation Period is for Israel and those who will be saved during that period because of the witness of the believing remnant in Israel, not the church.

I too worry that people believe they will "fly away" in a rapture and not be ready for end times. It is completely unbiblical. So many wonderful people believe it because that is what they have been taught. It is one of the traditions of men we have been warned of.

You probably already know that the rapture theory didn't come into existance until 1830. There are many passages that refute it but the most important thing to remember is:

IF RAPTURE IS TRUE THEN JESUS LIED

Instead of lobbing grenades of scripture against it please read the words of Jesus Himself where He told His disciples and us of what to expect in the end of days, and that was not that we would fly away.

Matthew 24 - Mark 13 - Luke 21

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