Posted on 03/18/2007 6:29:20 AM PDT by markomalley
In order to continue His work on earth and lead all peoples to eternal salvation, Jesus established one visible and hierarchical Church. It is very clear from the continual preparation of the Jewish people in the Old Testament and then with the precise act of Jesus in Cesarea Philippi, that God willed to found one Church as a visible, hierarchical, living, and continuing authority, to teach, govern, and sanctify in his name. It is no less clear that Jesus appointed the Apostle Simon the fisherman as the visible head of His Church. Even as He conferred the authority, Jesus changed Simon’s name to Peter; i.e., “rock.” The name “Peter” had never existed prior to this divine event in Cesarea Philippi.
Trials and tribulations will always be a part of the Church because it is not merely a human entity. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, and Satan will continue to attack it until the Second Coming. Perhaps history will judge our age as presenting the most formidable challenges the Catholic Church has had to face, although it is true that there have been other dramatic moments in the history of the Church.
The Catholic Church is the only institution in human history that has continually survived its own problems and failures. As G.K. Chesterton once said, this is true, "because it has a God Who knew His way out of the grave." Jesus assures us of His continual presence and protection: "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18).
Rather than becoming discouraged, angry, or even rebellious during a difficult time of trial, we must stand fast through prayer and fidelity. We must always pray for our Church, and always trust that God will deliver us from all evil.
Unity in the Catholic Church is damaged when Catholics, be they clergy or lay people, deviate from the deposit of faith, either through an unhealthy attachment to the past or a detrimental deviation, in the name of progress, from authentic Church teaching and discipline. Both postures tear away at the garment of unity.
Every member of the Church is obligated to obey every teaching of the Church. Matters regarding faith, morals and discipline are not subject to personal interpretation.
We live in a moment of history when many openly defy the authority of the pope. We need to persevere, at times under very difficult circumstances, in the exciting adventure of fidelity. With God's help and the maternal protection of Mary, the Mother of the Church, at the end of our earthly existence we can repeat the sounding words of St. Paul: "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" (2 Tm 3:7).
Many years ago when I was in high school and college, I too did a lot of discussing and debating. I too had many religious opinions, many of which were erroneous and unfounded. I debated other issues than the hot-button issues of today; nevertheless, I too struggled with obedience or disobedience to the pope. Thankfully, through the patient and loving guidance of a college professor who became a true life-long friend, I was able to openly search for the truth through deep prayer and sincere study, and I found it. I know that this truth is Jesus and all that His Catholic Church teaches. I love this truth very much and I will never leave it behind again, even if I have to stand alone with the pope, whoever he may be.
To leave behind the relativism that Cardinal Ratzinger spoke about before his election as Pope Benedict XVI, and fully embrace truth and charity, has been the most exciting and liberating event of my entire life. So, I truly do understand all of the debate, all of the discussion, and even all of the anger. I have been there, and I have left all of that behind only to find profound joy, peace and freedom in the Church that I have given my entire life to.
The only solution for the problems that we face as a Church in America is to get back to basics and rediscover the same Jesus that Peter encountered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Mt 16:17). We must begin again by truly living as disciples of the Lord and living the Gospels with renewed authenticity. True Christianity will set us free.
Indeed, it is my prayer - my goal - to be transparent in Christ so that His Light can shine unobstructed by me. I'll likely end up an amethyst, but I'm trying. LOL!
And your example of the Israelites demanding a king is quite excellent. We mortals see through the glass darkly and often need some thing or some one we can "touch."
Really though what it amounts to, IMHO, is that most people rely first of all on their own sensory perceptions and then their reasoning and then the counsel of others.
They haven't yet either known or learned to rely on the indwelling Spirit, i.e. Spiritual revelation.
The bottom line:
Indeed who do you believe, your senses, your heart(soul), or the spirit/Spirit?..
Brilliant question..
Quite wonderful how Jesus taught the Apostles thru metaphor(parable).. Weaning them slowly from crass words, to ideas, to the epiphany of the metaphor.. Has worked that way with me too.. Still I don't really "get" some of Jesus' metaphors.. Jesus weans from the flesh to the spirit to the Spirit.. in my experience..
Jesus metaphors are sometimes minifors and at other times are megaphors.. or macrophors or microphors.. and other times are microphors within macrophors.. There I've went and done it.. I've overflowed my metaphors.. All I say "IS"..
"WELL GOD BLESS ME"...
And the parables and metaphors are particularly revealing. The further we walk with the Lord, the more we understand.
Spiritual Truths are hidden in plain view - always.
Then again, some like Paul get a rude awakening. LOL!
Course, you Know, that the Torah in the beginning was memorized by Rabbis "God books" were looked down on.. it was deemed not a good thing to even speak let alone WRITE Gods name.. or anything else of God..
By thirteen a boy was expected to have memorized the Torah(first 5 books) completely.. as much as he could..
That slowly changed but remnants of that idea you can still find in Judaism.. somewhat..
Back to the question.. A real God does not need a book, any book.. God is NOT creating an organization with bylaws he is creating a family with members in particular.. its ..NOT..what you BELIEVE that counts it is Who you ARE that counts(book of life)..
Truly, when we read everything as a whole from Genesis to Revelation it is only obvious that Jesus Christ was not enfleshed to start a religion but rather to gather the family.
He is the First Cause and the Final Cause. The Alpha and the Omega.
Everything moves towards that Final Cause, that kingdom come, that new heaven and earth in which we are a family.
Indeed a new heaven and a new earth as it was written.. and no doubt a new HELL too.. ALL new stuff.. (1Cor 2;9)
The Universe will/can be a different place.. No reason to change the Universe though.. Its Us that needs some changing..
Its also possible not much will actually change except our perception of all there is will change.. i.e. changes in "US".. radically changed perceptibility..
I'm game and way past ready.. currently learning patience..
Being GOD?..
Why, indeed?
But, the fact of the matter is that's the way He did it. From the beginning:
God did not preserve the animals by Himself, although he easily could have. He had Noah build an ark.
Why in the world did God have the priest/king Melchizedek bless Abram (Gen 14)?
Why David? Why the prophets? Why did God need Aaron? or Moses? Why could God not have worked directly with His people?
You bring up a very valid question. God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. It seems that God would not need anybody to work directly with His people.
It also seems that God would not need to send His son to suffer and die for us. Wouldn't He simply be able to forgive us our sins? After all, He's God, right?
But the fact of the matter is that God did what He did.
The fact of the matter is that God sent His son to be the propritiation for our sins. The fact of the matter is that we are buried with His son when we are baptized in the hopes that we will rise in glory (Rom 6:4-5). And when we are baptized we are baptized into one body (1 Cor 12:13) with Christ as the head of that body (Eph 4:15). We suffer with Him (Rom 8:17, 1 Cor 12:26); our suffering fills up that which is lacking in His afflictions (Col 1:24 -- Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church).
And the fact of the matter is that He formed His Church in the fashion that He wished it to be formed.
And He formed it with Bishops (episkopos), priests (presbuteros, rendered "elder" in the kjv), and deacons (diakonos). Did He need to do so? Well, equating God with need just doesn't seem to make sense to me...
But He did. And that's that.
Now would I call it an earthly hierarchal cabal of heirlings? Well, a cabal is defined as: a clique (often secret) that seeks power usually through intrigue. I wouldn't exactly call this a cabal. Of course, since you hate the Catholic Church more than the devil himself, I can understsand why you'd do so. As to heirlings, well, we are all heirs of God and fellow-heirs with Christ (according to Romans 8:17), so I guess that's accurate...although I don't think that's the way you meant it.
The Roman Catholic Church is not the Catholic Church.. unless the Protestant Churchs are CLUBS.. I deem them both to be Clubs.. because they ARE... There is only one church.. one Body Of Christ.. Clubs are allowed though (Seven churchs of Asia) but not recommended... see the book of revelation.. Which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ(Rev ch1;1)..
[... As to heirlings, well, we are all heirs of God and fellow-heirs with Christ ..]
Big difference between hier-ling and heir-ling.. see Gos.John Chap 10..
Jesus is not a polygamist. There is but one Church, the bride of Christ. (cf Eph 5:23). That Church is universal in nature (thus the Greek katholikos -- transliterated to Catholic). All people who are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Spirit) (Matt 28:19) are members of that Church...
You want to call the Protestant groups "Clubs" -- OK. I'd call them "ecclesial communities," but the effect is the same.
You then said,
Big difference between hier-ling and heir-ling.. see Gos.John Chap 10..
True enough. You'll note that I used the spelling heir-ling, as you did in your earlier post. But, by the way, it's hire-ling, not hier-ling.
[... True enough. You'll note that I used the spelling heir-ling, as you did in your earlier post. But, by the way, it's hire-ling, not hier-ling. ..]
In the sense Hierophant.. I was using double entre'..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierophant
Moreover Christ receives with commendations and rebukes seven different churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. Notably, each church He speaks to had things they got right and things they got wrong.
And surely all of us understand the sum of all the believers regardless of when or where they lived (or will live) constitutes the body of Christ. We are the church, and Christ is the head (Eph 5:23).
However, if the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16 were correct – considering that Revelation was given so soon after the Resurrection - I would have expected Christ to reveal His messages to the 7 churches through Peter or his successor as He did with Moses and then his successor, Joshua.
I hasten to add that I am not anti-Catholic. My entire family is Christian and half of them are Catholic.
Curiosly, the assembly at mount Sinai was also a church:
No, there aren't.
Why should we take you serious when you can't even keep your facts straight?
What metaphor does is force our mind into action to find meaning at another level, engaging the imagination to look for relationships and resonances that tell us more than any literal description ever could. We cannot be passive before a metaphor. We must imagine and enter into it. Metaphor enlists us in a believing, obeying, living participation.
~Eugene H. Peterson
Absolutely. There are particular churches within the Church. Remember that the secular translation of ekklesia is assembly. But, as you point out, the sum of all Christians is His body; He has one bride: the Church.
Moreover Christ receives with commendations and rebukes seven different churches at Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. Notably, each church He speaks to had things they got right and things they got wrong.
Again, absolutely. But, I'd like you to consider something: the rebukes Christ gives the particular churches in Asia Minor (in the Apocolypse of John) were delivered to those churches via the pen of the Apostle John. He did not have John document messages to the particular church in Antioch, in Alexandria, in Hispania, in Greece, in Carthage, or anyplace to the east of Jerusalem. He didn't even have John document messages to the particular churches in Thrace (e.g., Thessaloniki) or in Galatia. Only to Asia Minor. It's fairly well accepted on a historical basis that John went to Ephesus, in the center of Asia Minor.
It should be interesting that it is not documented that Christ communicated with each of these particular churches through John. We do not have documented that He communicated with the bishop of each church directly, but through this individual. It almost appears like a patriarchal type of role for this person.
And that's why, unlike what you point out, in saying:
However, if the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16 were correct – considering that Revelation was given so soon after the Resurrection - I would have expected Christ to reveal His messages to the 7 churches through Peter or his successor as He did with Moses and then his successor, Joshua.
...I do not see any inconsistency. All of these particular churches were in a particular small area. Jesus communmicated to His churches through a revelation given to a man...who was charged with communicating that message to those churches. So this is entirely consistent with the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16 and the historic, hierarchial nature of the Church.
You then say, I hasten to add that I am not anti-Catholic. My entire family is Christian and half of them are Catholic.
I'm very glad that your entire family is Christian and I hope that at least some of the half of your family that is Catholic. I have a cousin who was a Free-Will Baptist preacher. His older daughter converted to Catholicism three years ago. From what I understand, she's considering a religious vocation. He and his younger daughter are going to be received into the Anglican church this Easter. His wife is staying Baptist. It's interesting how God works.
And I do realize that you're not anti-Catholic: you're pro-God. And good for you on that! I wish that more Catholics had a meek and humble attitude toward God that you have shown on this board and a voracious attitude toward understanding the Scripture that you've displayed. If more Catholics had the desire to study the scriptures as you have done, it would make them far better Catholics.
Thanks for the clarification!
You may wish to take a look at this link:
That page shows some of the sources used to come up with the number.
Note: I am not claiming 30,000 denominations. I have only personally counted about 3,000 and I haven't checked the sources cited by the authors of the above page...but if they were to check out, then that would provide a little 'gravitas' to the number 30,000.
Some see the churches in Revelation as a metaphor for the stages of the church from the Resurrection to Christ’s second coming. That however does not ring true in the Spirit for me.
Rather, I am drawn in the Spirit to see the seven churches as metaphors or “types” for the different types of assemblies of Christians or the Christians themselves. We all have our own circumstances, strengths and weaknesses. Some of us are stuck in “sin cities” – some are under persecution – some are indifferent on spiritual matters – some overflow with love.
Around here, on the Religion Forum, I see many Christians who are like the Church of Ephesus – they are passionate and careful with regard to their doctrine and traditions - but by their words and behavior are saying that they do not love God and/or their neighbor. Perhaps the Church of Ephesus is drawn to the “forum” format?
Nevertheless, if the churches were meant to be hierarchical in this life, with a single authority over all - I’d expect the seven to be presented by God like they are in a Menorah, the metaphor given to Moses, but they are not.
The Menorah is a single work of seven lamps, a single shaft (emphasis mine):
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. – Rev 1:12-20
The neat part is Jesus Christ is subject #1 in family gatherings and there are no bitter disputes over differences in doctrine or tradition. God has blessed my entire family!
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