Posted on 04/02/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by topcat54
Conclusion
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformedonline.com ...
Did you hear about the gay "pastor" (Church of England) who declared the other day that Christ did not die for sin and the Easter message was "repulsive"?
Satan must twist Scripture and lie about it to keep people away from Christ and out of heaven. Look for more and more of this as the days go on.
Here's topcat's excellent reply...
Now, for almost 1900 years every Christian has read this passage and understood the phrase "until the coming of the Lord" to be a reference to the second coming, and so this passage was in reference to that even, with the resurrection of the dead and judgment day. They saw 1 Cor. 15 as the parallel in Paul's thought.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. At Christ's return not only are we all changed – corruption putting on incorruption – but death is finally conquered. There is clearly no place in this passage for a thousands years separating our resurrection and the conquering of sin and death. But in the slice and dice world of dispensationalism, Paul has confused us by compressing several second comings and several resurrections and a thousand years of actual history all into what seems like one event. Elsewhere I pointed out a similar problem (according to the dispensationalist) with a "plain reading" of Paul earlier in the chapter. I had the pleasure (of sorts) of listening to John MacArthur this morning on the ride to work. His topic is the second coming. His text was 1 Cor. 15:20-28). I really like Johnny Mac. I listen to him almost every morning. He is generally a very straightforward sort of preacher. When he gets on a roll about God's sovereign election in the salvation of His people, as he did recently at the Ligioner Conference, he can be very good. But what struck about his message today was the convoluted, uncharacteristically obtuse way he approached the passage. He took a plain, simple passage about Christ and the resurrection, and how there are but two (His and ours; "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming") and twisted into an unrecognizable mess, all because of this tortured eschatology. Amazingly he was able to turn the two resurrections of the text into four! Here was what some folks have called the best modern preacher in America, if not the entire world, reduced to a twisted mess of illogical expression. I know it's not your place to defend Johnny Mac or any other dispensationalist, but the fact is MacArthur is the most inarticulate when he is talking about future things. And why is that? Because he is forced to deviate from the plain straightforward text of Scripture and insert all his dispensationally contrived theories. "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." (1 Thess 4:15)
The Gospel will continue to be preached among all nations and races, benefiting all who hear it with ears given by God for His glory.
Then at a time of God's choosing and unknown to man, Christ will come again to judge the quick and the death. At that exact moment, all history will end. The condemned will be cast aside for all eternity. Those acquitted by Christ's redemption will join Him in heaven forever.
That is Scriptural. That is truthful. That is simple and straightforward and that is what God intends for us to know and live by.
Most everything else is "vain imaginings."
"Take care never to impute the vain imaginings of your fancy to the Holy Spirit. I have seen the Spirit of God shamefully dishonored by people -- I hope they were insane -- who have said that they have had this and that revealed to them. There has not for some years passed over my head a single week in which I have not been pestered with the 'revelations' of hypocrites or maniacs. Semi-lunatics are very fond of coming with messages from the Lord to me, and it may save them some trouble if I tell them once for all that I will have none of their stupid messages. When my Lord and Master has any message to me he knows where I am, and he will send it to me direct, and not by madmen. Never dream that events are revealed to you by heaven, or you may come to be like those idiots who dare impute their blatant follies to the Holy Spirit. If you feel your tongue itch to talk nonsense, trace it to the devil, not to the Spirit of God. Whatever is to be revealed by the Spirit to any of us is in the word of God already -- he adds nothing to the Bible, and never will. Let persons who have revelations of this, that, and the other, go to bed and wakeup in their senses. I only wish they would follow the advice, and no longer insult the Holy Spirit by laying their nonsense at his door."From Charles Spurgeon, "THE PARACLETE" No. 1074. (John 14:16)
The Bible says that no one knows the day or the hour of the Lord's return - right? So if there is a pre trib rapture then all one need to do is count 7 years from this rapture and one will know when the Lord is coming but the Bible says no one will know. Thus the idea of a pre trib rapture can not be true!
But there are non-dispensationalists who believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Who are these people (please be specific) and why would they need to believe in a pre-trib rapture if they are not dispensational on the relationship between Israel and the Church?
The only reason for inventing or believing in a pre-trib rapture is to get rid of the Church (His chosen heavenly people) so that God can begin dealing once again with Israel after the flesh (His chosen earthly people).
"So simple even a caveman can do it." :-) (no offense)
The only reason for inventing or believing in a pre-trib rapture is to get rid of the Church (His chosen heavenly people) so that God can begin dealing once again with Israel after the flesh
Can't talk about just one thing. And we're back to the root error, from which all else springs: dispensationalism's absolute distinction between Israel and the church.
Christ is in heaven reigning on the throne of David exercising rule over the nations with a rod of iron (Luke 1:33; Acts 2:31ff; Rom. 15:12; 1 Cor. 15:25; Heb. 1:8; Rev. 2:27). He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth and the gospel is having success over the nations (Matt. 28:18-20). The kingdom is being established because Satan, the strong man, has been cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18) and bound (Matt. 12:28,29; Rev. 20:2,3). Christ's saints are being spiritually resurrected daily and are reigning with Him as the royal priesthood and holy nation (Eph. 2:5,6; 1 Peter 2:9).
That's about as literal as it gets.
AMEN!!! There is no greater truth in history than Christ reigns today "on earth as it is in Heaven."
Wake up, Christians. We are engaged in battle today. And we will win because the Gospel is "sharper than any twoedged sword..."
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him." -- Ephesians 3:8-12"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Just think, Dr.E, in regards to your spirit, you might just get your wish.
Chapter 1
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:
The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, 4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai, [And appear from His camp] And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.
5 And all shall be smitten with fear And the Watchers shall quake, And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.
6 And the high mountains shall be shaken, And the high hills shall be made low, And shall melt like wax before the flame
7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder, And all that is upon the earth shall perish, And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).
8 But with the righteous He will make peace.
And will protect the elect, And mercy shall be upon them.
And they shall all belong to God, And they shall be prospered, And they shall all be blessed.
And He will help them all, And light shall appear unto them, And He will make peace with them'.
9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm
***
The wicked are to be removed! ‘Thy kingdom come’ But you’ve got to give Jezebel credit for the whopper that is called the rapture.
Malachi 4
1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the LORD of hosts, “ That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. 3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.
4 “ Remember the Torah of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
6 And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”
I am thinking people like Benny Hinn (who has more problems than his eschatology). He is for all intents and purposes a pro-Israel dominionist, but believes in the pre-trib rapture. To quote him "there won't be one saint of God raptured out of a wheel chair". He is not one you could plant in the camp of dispensationalism because of his dominionist preaching.
Why would they need to believe in a pre-trib? I have no idea. I'm not one of them. Seems inconsistent to me.
Number one "inventing" is offensive language that I would ask you to refrain from. It is a theological belief we have and you don't. Vitriol doesn't help us have what is turning out for the moment to be a civil discussion.
Second, God's dealing with Israel is one reason for the Rapture. The second is the protect the Church from His wrath. We aren't subject to His wrath because Christ took His wrath for us. Doesn't mean we won't have persecution here and now. But God see's us as pure and justified, and there is no need for us to be subjected to His wrath at all as it is poured out on the earth.
The entire issue of a premillenial rapture is the least of egoistic thinking. Just as our Lord and Savior was removed and cut off at the end of Daniel's 69th week, Church Age was provided by God prior to the completion of the 70th week. When our Lord ascended, it was not for himself, but in obedience to the Father, who gave him His third commission and title.
The Church Age provides the body for Christ which will be purified and become His bride. For those who are in fellowship with Him, there is no need for a Great Tribulation.
Although the posts of many who seek to attack His plan by demonizing the doctrine of dispensations is intended for evil, He is now using it for His good. Myself and a number of other believers remaining in fellowship with Him have been afforded opportunity to further study and communicate His Prophecy which He prepared in eternity past so that His Church may be edified and further completed for eternity future, not by our will, but by His.
Thanks for the post.
The Bible does not give us the timing. I doubt that it will be a long span of time. After all, with the Christians gone I think the world will be ripe for Antichrist. But what the Bible doesn't say, I can not be dogmatic about.
As to the signs, I've already answered you concerning their significance. The rapture is signless. In terms of the rapture, they have little to no bearing at all.
At the Rapture, He comes for His Church which is caught up in the pneuma (translated as air by some, spirit by others).
At the 2nd Advent, He comes onto the earth. Some interpret this to be the same event. Others in considering other Scripture, unconditional and conditional covenants, respecting the distinctions between Jew and gentile throughout the course of human history, while also discerning the Church Age, where there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in our opportunity to have fellowship with Him, we also recognize the uniqueness of this dispensation over any other.
"Thanks to Kolokotronis for introducing me to Chrysostom's Easter Sermon."
You are very welcome; sort of an important sermon for Christians to know about! Orthodox Christians throughout the world will hear this sermon at the Divine Liturgies at Midnight on next Sunday, Pascha.
Book of Enoch
Uhhhh. Book of Enoch?!?!?! This is apropos?
Malachi 4
is about Jesus' first coming.
"Christ is in heaven reigning on the throne of David exercising rule over the nations with a rod of iron (Luke 1:33; Acts 2:31ff; Rom. 15:12; 1 Cor. 15:25; Heb. 1:8; Rev. 2:27).....the gospel is having success over the nations (Matt. 28:18-20). The kingdom is being established..."
This was the same position as all the liberals held at the turn of the last century held unfortunatly "then came Amalek"; WWI, and then the Depression, and then WWII, the Holocaust and the bomb. Then the millions murdered by communism in Russia, the millions murdered in China and the millions murdered in Cambodia and Rhwanda. There were more wars in the last century than ever before in history. During the last century and into this, the greates rival to Christianity has entered the battle field for the hearts of mankind. The wishful optimism of the liberals turned to pessimism as tthey looked around them and saw what man was doing to man and we heard "well, just wait, it's coming". What nations is He now ruling with the "rod of iron"? What nations is He now crushing, breaking with the rod of His authority/severity?
"The kingdom is being established because Satan, the strong man, has been cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18) and bound (Matt. 12:28,29; Rev. 20:2,3)"
Just when and with what was he bound and where is he kept?
Eph. 6:10-18, "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints"
1 Pet. 5:8-9, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world."
2 Cor. 11:13-15, "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
2 Cor. 4:4, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
Seems that Paul and Peter have a different take on just what is happening now.
This was the same position as all the liberals held at the turn of the last century held unfortunatly "then came Amalek";
Well, that interesting. I always thought liberalism was about denying the gospel. Liberalism does not preach Jesus Christ. It hates Jesus Christ. It hates the word and the power of the gospel. Liberalism is all about man pulling himself up by his bootstraps.
That is a far cry from the biblical optimism found in the Scripture.
Biblical optimism is built on the fact that Christ is seated on His throne ruling the nations with a rod of iron. Not some weenie sitting in a corner biding His time until the rapture.
Biblical optimism believes that the Holy Spirit has real power to convert people by gospel preaching.
Biblical optimism believes that God’s desire for a great multitude that no man can number to come to faith in Jesus Christ. Not some wimpy minority.
So I think you are confused, historically and theologically.
Just when and with what was he bound and where is he kept?
He is bound with spiritual chains and held in spiritual abeyance “so as to not deceive the nations anymore”. If Satan were not bound, the kingdom would not have come, and the nations would not be in the position of being discipled.
“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.” (Matt 12:28,29)
Jesus is plundering the household of the “strong man”.
Part of your error is that you do not read all that Rev. 20 says about the binding of Satan. You take it to be absolute, but that’s not what the text says. Satan is not powerless, except insofar as his ability to ultimately deceive the nations.
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Is that the best you can do? I thought you have someone serious in mind. I wouldn't be surprised if Hinn believed Israel was made of chocolate donuts.
Why would they need to believe in a pre-trib? I have no idea. I'm not one of them. Seems inconsistent to me.
Perhaps that's because you don't know any.
Number one "inventing" is offensive language that ..
What term should I use to describe a position that appeared out of the blue with absolutely no pedigree attached?
Second, God's dealing with Israel is one reason for the Rapture.
God is dealing with the remnant of Israel today, just as He has been for 2000 years since the resurrection of Christ.
According to Paul that proves God's faithfulness to His promise.
The second is the protect the Church from His wrath.
Protection from whose wrath? So you really do believe that 2/3 of the "chosen people" are going to be exterminated by the wrath of God in the future?
Part of your problem is seeing the "great tribulation" as still future and still to be poured out on unsuspecting Jewish people.
I need to see verses for all this stuff.
Christ is NOT reigning today...If Jesus were King today, reigning over the nations of the earth, do you think Iran would be kidnapping British sailors??? You think countries would be sending spacecraft to Mars (to look for the origin of life)???
With a rod of iron???
Surely you jest...
Jesus showed up as a prophet...He became the high priest...He will be the King and given the throne of his father David (on earlh where David's throne was, over the house of Jacob (on earth)...He will, but not yet...
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