Why do you insist upon false teaching?
There is nothing in Scripture that states how far in advance of the Tribulation the rapture happens.
Well, this is a new one. So you believe the church could be secretly ratured and the tribulation not happen for another month, hundred years, thousadnd years, ...?
Therefore the "signs" which you apparently seem to think might be happening may be no signs at all, and are, perhaps, inherently untrustworhy, not even worth talking about?
The Doctrine of pretrib rapture did not become popular until the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible. Scofield was influenced by Darby a member of the Plymouth Bretheren who had been a priest in the Anglican church.
Darby was a believer in the Dispensationalism which has been rejected by both Catholic and reformed Protestant teachings and doctrine.
What I find most troublesome about the doctrine is the assumption that Christians will be taken up before the tribulation therefore avoiding suffering. The Bible clearly does not exempt Christians from having to suffer for their faith. Rather it says that we will suffer for it.
It also forgets that the 2nd coming of Christ will be a rather spectacular event. There is no reason to believe in a secret/hey where did everybody go? whisking away of the faithful.
In any event no man know's the hour of His coming so we must be ready in and out of season. And at death we will all have to face the Lord, may we do so with a humble and contrite heart.
There is nothing in Scripture that states how far in advance of the Tribulation the rapture happens. It could be 100 years. It could be a month. -- Blogger
(Moved from another thread.)
Yes there is. Those who are alive do not precede those who have died. The resurrection of the righteous is stated, by Jesus, to be on the last day.
NO.
Matthew 24 (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Notice that in verse 39, the wicked who perished in the flood are described as being taken away. The wicked are taken first, not the righteous. Next, it tells us that it shall be exactly the same at the arrival of Messiah. In the days of Noah, those taken first perished, and so it will be again at the arrival of Messiah. The answer given by Yehoshua refers to the vultures gathering over the bodies of the wicked, those taken first, which are all slain as the Messiah arrives.
Now, let's look at the tares and wheat:
Matthew 13 (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Yehoshua then explains the parable in detail to His disciples:
Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Notice the timing of events described, and how it compares with those taken first in Matthew 24:39-42. At the end of the world, when the time for the harvest of humanity has come, it is not the righteous who are gathered first, it is the wicked! The wicked are taken and dealt with first, while the people of YHWH are still among them.
Now, read Luke 17:26-30.
Luke 17 (KJV)
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Sudden destruction comes upon the wicked at the arrival of Messiah. They will all perish.
Revelation 3 (all the following are from the KJV)
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Revelation 22
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Revelation 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
You can't surprise the wicked if you take away the righteous first. Messiah is supposed to come quickly, like a thief in the night, so people are to repent, live righteously and be watchful, lest they be caught by surprise. If you remove the righteous first, the wicked are going to notice and not be surprised.
Revelation 16 shows the last seven plagues being poured out on the unrepentant wicked of the earth. Through verse 12 the first six of the plagues are poured out, and then in verse 15-
Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Messiah has not come yet at the time of the sixth plague! Notice that the seventh plague then falls in verse 17-
Revelation 16 (KJV)
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
At the time the seventh plague is announcing the time for earth has come to an end, and the arrival of Messiah follows. So, Messiah does not come to earth until after all seven plagues have been poured out on the wicked. The faithful are not removed at any point prior to these plagues, they have endured them without fear of being affected by them.
Psalm 91 (JPS)
5 Thou shalt not be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Of the pestilence that walketh in darkness, nor of the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 For thou hast made YHWH who is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation.
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy tent.
11 For He will give His angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
From what I read, there is no foundation for a pre-trib rapture or removal of the righteous at all.
I think the tribulation is the judgement. No one escapes the judgement.
Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Rewards aren't given prior, they are given after.
Psalm 37 (JPS)
9 For evil-doers shall be cut off; but those that wait for YHWH, they shall inherit the land.
20 For the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of YHWH shall be as the fat of lambs -- they shall pass away in smoke, they shall pass away.
22 For such as are blessed of Him shall inherit the land; and they that are cursed of Him shall be cut off.
23 It is of YHWH that a man's goings are established; and He delighted in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for YHWH upholdeth his hand.
27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28 For YHWH loveth justice, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever; but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
33 YHWH will not leave him in his hand, nor suffer him to be condemned when he is judged.
34 Wait for YHWH, and keep His way, and He will exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
38 But transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is of YHWH; He is their stronghold in the time of trouble.
40 And YHWH helpeth them, and delivereth them; He delivereth them from the wicked, and saveth them, because they have taken refuge in Him.
YHWH is the deliverer, and the saviour.
Isaiah 47:4 - Our Redeemer, YHWH of hosts is His name, The Holy One of Israel.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Alive and remain. This indicates that some are dead and gone already. (The wicked)
It might be that during this period of being caught up in the air, is when the new earth and heaven are created.
1.) A resurrection of the righteous immediately prior to the Tribulation;
2.) A resurrection of the Tribulation Saints prior to the Millenium, and;
3.) A resurrection of the wicked prior to Judgement.
Lahaye (for instance) specifically refers to THREE resurrections and TWO Judgements in his Revelation commentary (a well-intentioned Baptismal gift). I suppose the second Judgement Day was required to reconcile the timeline after finessing the extra resurrection into the text. It's all very confusing.
No.
The Bible says that no one knows the day or the hour of the Lord's return - right? So if there is a pre trib rapture then all one need to do is count 7 years from this rapture and one will know when the Lord is coming but the Bible says no one will know. Thus the idea of a pre trib rapture can not be true!
But there are non-dispensationalists who believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Who are these people (please be specific) and why would they need to believe in a pre-trib rapture if they are not dispensational on the relationship between Israel and the Church?
The only reason for inventing or believing in a pre-trib rapture is to get rid of the Church (His chosen heavenly people) so that God can begin dealing once again with Israel after the flesh (His chosen earthly people).
I also believe the Return of Christ and the Second Coming of Christ to be two significant but different events to take place. Christ calling forth the alive and the dead coming from the heavens and his physical return on earth just that to happen later.
Several things point to Rapture. One being the Tribulation and Great Tribulation itself. The Bible clearly states when Israel makes the 7 year agreement with the antichrist the days can be counted literally as do the day of Christ Second Coming. Yet no one knows when. True no one will know because only the unbelievers will be on earth. They know not the time.
Next is Revelations Chapter 4. Note the passages
1Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast. The voice said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” 2And instantly I was in the Spirit,£ and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it! 3The one sitting on the throne was as brilliant as gemstones—jasper and carnelian. And the glow of an emerald circled his throne like a rainbow. 4Twenty-four thrones surrounded him, and twenty-four elders sat on them. They were all clothed in white and had gold crowns on their heads.
Robed in white and crowned. Their judgment has passed and they have been rewarded and are seated as the Elders. The dead in spirit die and their soul enters into eternity of hell. The dead in Christ and living spirits enter heaven upon earthly body death. Even though all will give account for their life here on earth believers do not face the judgment of the unbeliever. That is why Christ spoke to Elijah and Moses for they like Christ are alive in heaven. Chapter 5 after the Elders are sitting is when the Tribulations will come.
As well other verse point to a calling out. GOD called out Noah before he passed judgment on man and the floods came. Noah was saved. GOD called out Israel before passing judgment upon Egypt. Israel was saved. GOD called out Jesus from Judea into Egypt before the children were killed. Christ did not perish. Christ will call out the church before judgment upon this world. These understandings have been sealed up as told in Daniel. There were not to be understood until they needed to be understood. The End Times. It doesn't say we are never to know them but they are to be sealed until GOD's chosen time to reveal them.
Here is more evidence. To understand the scriptures meaning Paul is not talking about the blast mentioned in Revelations but rather the traditional Hebrew wedding custom of a first and last trumpet blast. One announces the engagement the other announces the wedding begins now. Bring forth the Bride the Father has spoken.
1 Corinthians 15:51 But let me tell you a wonderful secret God has revealed to us. Not all of us will die, but we will all be transformed. 52It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died£ will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die.
That blast is the end. At that blast it is too late. The Bride Groom has arrived and taken in his bride for the feast the doors have been closed. No one knows what hour. No one but the Father. The dead in Christ and the believers living at that time on earth will be called out before judgment.
But the most revealing scripture on this issue is spoken by Christ himself and HIS description of the End Times before the Tribulation.
Luke Ch17 Jesus replied, “The Kingdom of God isn’t ushered in with visible signs.£ 21You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is among you.”£
22Later he talked again about this with his disciples. “The time is coming when you will long to share in the days of the Son of Man, but you won’t be able to,” he said. 23“Reports will reach you that the Son of Man has returned and that he is in this place or that. Don’t believe such reports or go out to look for him. 24For when the Son of Man returns, you will know it beyond all doubt. It will be as evident as the lightning that flashes across the sky. 25But first the Son of Man must suffer terribly£ and be rejected by this generation.
26“When the Son of Man returns, the world will be like the people were in Noah’s day. 27In those days before the flood, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came to destroy them all.
28“And the world will be as it was in the days of Lot. People went about their daily business—eating and drinking, buying and selling, farming and building—29until the morning Lot left Sodom. Then fire and burning sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Yes, it will be ‘business as usual’ right up to the hour when the Son of Man returns.£ 31On that day a person outside the house£ must not go into the house to pack. A person in the field must not return to town. 32Remember what happened to Lot’s wife! 33Whoever clings to this life will lose it, and whoever loses this life will save it. 34That night two people will be asleep in one bed; one will be taken away, and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding flour together at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.”£
37“Lord, where will this happen?” the disciples asked. Jesus replied, “Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.”£
Christ himself tells us what is to come. He calls out his Bride, his sheep, his children BEFORE the Tribulation begins. How can we know? God told Noah to get in the Ark and GOD sealed the door Himself. GOD made certain Lot was safe as well. He was called out to safety. When the Tribulation and Great Tribulation is happening on earth there will be no mistaking it. The descriptions are horrors of horrors. Not days for feast, weddings, and parties.
I believe our GOD who did all of this will save us and keep us safe as well.
Am I right in this or wrong it simply doesn't matter. If GOD puts us through the Tribulation so shall it be as the 3 Hebrews in the firey furnace. But scripture does point to a calling out in several places and is quite clear about it.
Guess which of these two verses is actually from the Bible:
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
OR
He who guesses wrong about whether the rapture is before or after or during the great tribulation shall burn in hell fire--and should have heeded the superior arguments of the other guy on FR.
IV.
[As the elders who saw John the disciple of the Lord remembered that they had heard from him how the Lord taught in regard to those times, and said]: "The days will come in which vines shall grow, having each ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in every one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five-and-twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, 'I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.' In like manner, [He said] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples, and seeds, and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and be in perfect subjection to man."
V.
As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, "In my Father's house are many mansions:" for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die.
VI.
The same person, moreover, has set down other things as coming to him from unwritten tradition, amongst these some strange parables and instructions of the Saviour, and some other things of a more fabulous nature. Amongst these he says that there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth. He moreover hands down, in his own writing, other narratives given by the previously mentioned Aristion of the Lord's sayings, and the traditions of the presbyter John.
IX.
Taking occasion from Papias of Hierapolis, the illustrious, a disciple of the apostle who leaned on the bosom of Christ, and Clemens, and Pantaenus the priest of [the Church] of the Alexandrians, and the wise Ammonius, the ancient and first expositors, who agreed with each other, who understood the work of the six days as referring to Christ and the whole Church.
Points to note:
1. The millennium is seen as a real, physical time on the earth - not as a metaphor for a spiritual reality.
2. People will be living on the earth during the millennium. The curse will be rescinded (to some degree).
3 The millennium occurs after the resurrection and is the physical reign of Jesus Christ on the earth.
4. The Church age is metaphorically the "first six days" implying that the millennium is the seventh - i.e. the day of rest.
Ref: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/papias.html
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The end is near. Let’t bomb Islam and hurry it up or stop the world, I want to get off.
Jesus has said no one knows but the Father, well except, those who say the Bible tells them so.
Sounds like Bible babble to me.
Of course the pre-trib rapture is biblical. There’s all kinds of proof for a pre-trib rapture.
http://www.raptureforums.com/Rapture/index.cfm