Posted on 04/02/2007 8:52:50 AM PDT by Terriergal
April 9, 2007 issue - Rick Warren is as big as a bear, with a booming voice and easygoing charm. Sam Harris is compact, reserved and, despite the polemical tone of his books, friendly and mild. Warren, one of the best-known pastors in the world, started Saddleback in 1980; now 25,000 people attend the church each Sunday. Harris is softer-spoken; paragraphs pour out of him, complex and fact-filled—as befits a Ph.D. student in neuroscience. At NEWSWEEK's invitation, they met in Warren's office recently and chatted, mostly amiably, for four hours. Jon Meacham moderated. Excerpts follow.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
Which is why you should never trust anyone who smiles too much.
Harris: I'm noticing Christians doing terrible things explicitly for religious reasons—for instance, not fund-ing [embryonic] stem-cell research. The motive is always paramount for me. No society in human history has ever suffered because it has become too reasonable.
WARREN: We're in exact agreement on that. I just happen to believe that Christianity saved reason. We would not have the Bill of Rights without Christianity.
.
Unfortuntately Warren not only did not take Harris to task on embryonic stem cell research, he appears to be in agreement that it is explicitly terrible to be against it.
Smile with your mouth closed? LOL!
Here’s a poll conducted by Newsweek, which is associated with this same article on this thread (above) —
91% of American adults believe in God
87% of American adults identify with a specific religion
82% of poll respondents identify themselves as Christian
5% of poll respondents identify themselves as non-Christian (such as Judaism or Islam)
48% of the public rejects the scientific theory of evolution
34% of college graduates say they accept the Biblical account of creation as fact
73% of Evangelical Protestants say they believe that God create humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years
39% of non-Evangelical Protestants and
41% of Catholics agree with that view
10% of Americans identify themselves as having “no religion”
6% said they don’t believe in a God at all
3% of the public self-identifies as atheist
Now, with that information, as indicated in the poll, something is terribly wrong in America between the stated positions and opinions of the public versus the antagonistic and suppressing tactics of the “culture” towards Christianity. There is an agressive and sustained attack upon Christianity going on and has been for over 50 years, in this country.
Just from that article alone we see two men. One man represents (at least in his “profession of belief”) anywhere from 82-91% of the public while the other man represents a mere 3% of that same population of the United States.
And yet — they are given a “platform of equivalence” — as if the one is just as good as the other. And so, this (so-called) “objective” publication, which gives us this interview, ends up elevating the 3% extreme minority position (of atheist) to an highly exalted and elevated position — by simply “pretending” to be “objective.
If they really wanted to be objective, they would find out why atheists are in the deplorable position of being a mere 3% of the population and why they cannot sustain greaters numbers than that. But, for Newsweek to do *that*, they would have to get people to understand that what Romans 1 says — is true...
Romans 1:16-23
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
And if Newsweek got too close to that story — about how all recognize and know that there is a God — they *also* might get too close to the following story.
Romans 1:24-32
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
And to get too close to this “story” would certainly be an embarassment to a liberal magazine, to many Democrats (for sure) and to the homosexual agenda that many of those same people support.
They certainly would not like to be identified as being in verse 32, being those —
[ ... ] who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said — “Unfortuntately Warren not only did not take Harris to task on embryonic stem cell research, he appears to be in agreement that it is explicitly terrible to be against it.”
Well, I’m not a fan of Rick Warren, by any means. I think he’s going along the lines of the “Emergent Church”, perhaps trying to address post-modernism, but actually being sucked into it.
See http://www.crossroad.to/charts/postmodernity.htm for some information on post-modernism versus biblical truth.
HOWEVER, with that being said, the magazine article did not include all of what Rick Warren said. I would like to see all of it. They said, in the article, that there was four hours of it. I don’t see four hours of transcripts. I only see a few minutes.
It appears, to me, that the magazine has been highly selective of what both of those guys said. I would like to read the entire thing.
Regards,
Star Traveler
FYI Pastor Rick included “using unborn babies for
stem-cell harvesting” as one of his five “non-negotiable”
issues in choosing a candidate on the eve of the
presidential election in 2004.
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/BB_PDFS/BB_nov15_2006.pdf
Warren was agreeing with Harris’ statement “No society
in human history has ever suffered because it has become
too reasonable”. I doubt he was agreeing with the stem
cell comment. (EDITING)
As usual your posts are lush and thoughtful.
What is wrong with America is that we confuse
being “spiritual” with being Christian. I don’t
think for a minute 82% of Americans are Christian.
At the least, and sadly, 82% cannot possibly be
literate Christians.
Agree... there was an avoidance of discussion
regarding SIN. Another day perhaps.
And yet he welcomes an pro-abortionist candidate to his church to speak.
I’ve been accused of a lot of things around here, but never the cause of someone joining. Welcome!
Thanks much.
Your long time lurking has probably revealed . . . folks don’t always seem to need hard specific facts to RW bash. That he doesn’t do things precisely as they do; or have theology precisely as theirs is . . . . affords seemingly ample rationalization for shredding a fellow believer up one side and down the other.
Sometimes I think it’s jealousy. Sometimes I think it’s raw pride. Sometimes I think it’s common human perversity. But it’s always sad.
And, I think, from God’s perspective, usually far more reprehensible than the issues they rail at RW about.
So you have no problem with:
-Warren having a pro-murder candidate speak at his church?
-Warren claiming that there is no persecution of christians in Syria?
I’ve made my views clear at various times on countless RW bashing threads.
Your putting untrue words in my fingers does not change my perspective.
Your postings have more weight, to me, when they are more honest, accurate, true.
Lying or distorting what I have and/or don’t have a problem with is not fitting; not brotherly; not Christian, imho. Given that, the pontifications about RW fall enormously flat based on your own integrity toward me about what I say, feel and believe. I shall henceforth consider that any allegations you may have toward RW are wholesale bankrupt because of your obvious lack of integrity toward me about what I say, feel and believe.
Or, in Jesus words Quix paraphrased . . . it’s not fitting to throw rocks at the prostitute when one has slept with her.
Has your religion morphed into a negative focus?
Kind of a . . . what . . .
DEVOTION TO CRUCIFYING RW
vs a
DEVOTION TO THE CRUCIFIED AND RISEN JESUS?
Based on your answer you seem to be a pure Warren apologist, which by association indicates you support abortion and persecution of Christian brothers.
This scenario sort of flashes through my head . . .
All the umpteen hundred/thousand? lines bashing RW . . .
on one balance scale . . .
And Christ the Intercessor looking under piles of papers and in waste baskets and desks and shelves all over to find more to put on the other side of the scale.
The pile of time, energy, intent, feeling, attitude, raw statements, lines, pages, . . . on the RW bashing side are sooooooooooooooooooo extensive. Everything else seems to pale by comparison.
A curious ‘ministry.’
I wonder how it ranks in terms of Heaven’s priorities.
No. I don’t wonder any more, really.
Given repeated statements of mine on countless RW bashing threads, I believe that you have every reason to
That I do not support abortion nor abuse of fellow believers. To know that I do not based on repeated statements to that effect on my part . . . and to say as you said above leaves me rather incredulous and almost fingerless--errr almost speechless.
If you construction on reality prevents you from accepting my statements about myself and what I believe and feel at face value, I would greatly appreciate it if you could at least avoid ascribing 180 degrees the opposite to me. I don't recall ever doing that to you--even in illustrative hyperbole.
If you are unable and/or unwilling to abide by such minimal integrity toward me and what I say about my own confictions, beliefs, feelings, I will have no choice but to note that and respond accordingly.
A ONE ANOTHER THREAD has been posted. I'm earnestly renewing my efforts to abide by such Biblical standards. I strongly encourage considering something similar on your part.
Most sincerely and most emphatically, Qx
What about his trip to, and comments about, Syria? Or his status as a CFR member? Would you defend those, too?
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