Posted on 05/01/2007 9:13:13 AM PDT by Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey
Hello Brothers & Sisters --
We want to join a Catholic Church here in Michigan. I was raised Catholic, my wife was raised Lutheran - MS.
We were not married at a Catholic or Lutheran church.
She (as do I) have some questions. We would appreciate any answers or comments:
-- Why is the RCIA program so long (September to Easter Vigil) for someone who is not a 'non-Christian' and with so much Christian schooling already (Lutheran MS School - K-8)?
-- Why is she considered a 'convert'? She is still Christian, willing to accept a fuller understanding way of the church and way of practicing the Christian faith.
-- The Catholic Church does say we are married, but we have to apply for a "dispensation" and have another marriage ceremony. If the RCC accepts her baptism, why not our marriage (two baptized Christians who exchanged rings "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit")? This makes her feel like our wedding in 1998 "didn't happen."
-- She didn't really know this one: Why do Lutherans only have 3 sacraments (baptism, holy communion and reconciliation), as opposed to 7 in the RCC?
Thank you for any and all your thoughts.
This is harder for me than I imagined.
Peace.
That's a circular argument. Nice and tight, but still circular.
If God communicates His grace through healing oil or through the laying on of hands, a change is made to the person. He receives grace.
I don't see why a limit is put on how you classify God working in this way.
Yes, Jesus forgave the lame man his sins, but He also healed his infirmity.
Since this article deals with more than one confession, the caucus would be broad anyway, i.e. [Lutheran/Catholic Caucus]
We in the LCMS don’t mind caucusing with the Catholic Church; it’s other Lutheran churches we have trouble with.
Tell your wife if she becomes Catholic she will never again have to bring a casserole to all church meetings. She will never eat green jello with marshmallows again at women’s events. She can dress down on Sunday—no more hat, white gloves, and nylons. She will never have to invite the pastor over for chicken dinner on Sunday.
Thank you for sharing that. I don’t deny that there are outstanding Christians who practice the Catholic faith.
Thanks pastor! Meant to ping you (another freeper pinged me here) then got tied up at work.
LOL!
From The Number and Use of the Sacraments (in The Apology [Defense] of the Augsburg Confession, pp. 117-18 of the pdf file)
1] In the Thirteenth Article the adversaries approve our statement that the Sacraments are not only marks of profession among men, as some imagine, but that they are rather signs and testimonies of God's will toward us, through which God moves 2] hearts to believe [are not mere signs whereby men may recognize each other, as the watchword in war, livery, etc., but are efficacious signs and sure testimonies, etc.]. But here they bid us also count seven sacraments. We hold that it should be maintained that the matters and ceremonies instituted in the Scriptures, whatever the number, be not neglected. Neither do we believe it to be of any consequence, though, for the purpose of teaching, different people reckon differently, provided they still preserve aright the matters handed down in Scripture. Neither have the ancients reckoned in the same manner. [But concerning this number of seven sacraments, the fact is that the Fathers have not been uniform in their enumeration; thus also these seven ceremonies are not equally necessary.]
3] If we call Sacraments rites which have the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to decide what are properly Sacraments. For rites instituted by men will not in this way be Sacraments properly so called. For it does not belong to human authority to promise grace. Therefore signs instituted without God's command are not sure signs of grace, even though they perhaps instruct the rude [children or the uncultivated], or admonish as to something [as a painted cross]. 4] Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament. For when we are baptized, when we eat the Lord's body, when we are absolved, our hearts must be firmly assured that God truly forgives us 5] for Christ's sake. And God, at the same time, by the Word and by the rite, moves hearts to believe and conceive faith, just as Paul says, Rom. 10, 17: Faith cometh by hearing. But just as the Word enters the ear in order to strike our heart, so the rite itself strikes the eye, in order to move the heart. The effect of the Word and of the rite is the same, as it has been well said by Augustine that a Sacrament is a visible word, because the rite is received by the eyes, and is, as it were, a picture of the Word, signifying the same thing as the Word. Therefore the effect of both is the same.
6] Confirmation and Extreme Unction are rites received from the Fathers which not even the Church requires as necessary to salvation, because they do not have God's command. Therefore it is not useless to distinguish these rites from the former, which have God's express command and a clear promise of grace.
7] The adversaries understand priesthood not of the ministry of the Word, and administering the Sacraments to others, but they understand it as referring to sacrifice; as though in the New Testament there ought to be a priesthood like the Levitical, to sacrifice for the people, and merit the remission of sins for others. 8] We teach that the sacrifice of Christ dying on the cross has been sufficient for the sins of the whole world, and that there is no need, besides, of other sacrifices, as though this were not sufficient for our sins. Men, accordingly, are justified not because of any other sacrifices, but because of this one sacrifice of Christ, if they believe that they have been redeemed by this sacrifice. 9] They are accordingly called priests, not in order to make any sacrifices for the people as in the Law, so that by these they may merit remission of sins for the people; but they are called to teach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments to the people. 10] Nor do we have another priesthood like the Levitical, 11] as the Epistle to the Hebrews sufficiently teaches. But if ordination be understood as applying to the ministry of the Word, we are not unwilling to call ordination a sacrament. For the ministry of the Word has God's command and glorious promises, Rom. 1, 16: The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. Likewise, Is. 55, 11: So shall My Word be that goeth forth out of My mouth; it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please. 12] If ordination be understood in this way, neither will we refuse to call the imposition of hands a sacrament. For the Church has the command to appoint ministers, which should be most pleasing to us, because we know that God approves this ministry, and is present in the ministry [that God will preach and work through men and those who have been chosen by men]. 13] And it is of advantage, so far as can be done, to adorn the ministry of the Word with every kind of praise against fanatical men, who dream that the Holy Ghost is given not through the Word, but because of certain preparations of their own, if they sit unoccupied and silent in obscure places, waiting for illumination, as the Enthusiasts formerly taught, and the Anabaptists now teach.
14] Matrimony was not first instituted in the New Testament, but in the beginning, immediately on the creation of the human race. It has, moreover, God's command; it has also promises, not indeed properly pertaining to the New Testament, but pertaining rather to the bodily life. Wherefore, if any one should wish to call it a sacrament, he ought still to distinguish it from those preceding ones [the two former ones], which are properly signs of the New Testament, and testimonies of grace and the remission of sins. 15] But if marriage will have the name of sacrament for the reason that it has God's command, other states or offices also, which have God's command, may be called sacraments, as, for example, the magistracy.
16] Lastly, if among the Sacraments all things ought to be numbered which have God's command, and to which promises have been added, why do we not add prayer, which most truly can be called a sacrament? For it has both God's command and very many promises; and if placed among the Sacraments, as though in a more eminent place, it would invite men to pray. 17] Alms could also be reckoned here, and likewise afflictions, which are, even themselves signs, to which God has added promises. But let us omit these things. For no prudent man will strive greatly concerning the number or the term, if only those objects still be retained which have God's command and promises.
SAME TO YOU, ONLY MORE OF IT!
Informative explanation, thank you pastor. We Catholics would heartily concur with the criteria of sacraments as being instituted by God and being visible signs. Whence this criteria about "each delivers the forgiveness Christ won for us on the cross" though? Obviously, with that criteria it makes sense why matrimony would not be considered a sacrament by Lutherans...but I'm curious about how that criteria came to be held as definitive...it's one we don't share.
i read the bible everyday, i am in fact reading it cover to cover right now. however, I also receive the Word of God made Flesh every time I go to mass, as Christ says (with many BIBLICAL references to it) I am the living bread from heaven, whoever EATS this bread shall live also He says at the last supper this is My Body.
Eucharist = The Word of God made Flesh = Jesus Christ
Fine. But there is no "Do this" type of command by which Christ instituted it for all times in the Church.
Yes, Jesus forgave the lame man his sins, but He also healed his infirmity.
Certainly healing/salvation are related concepts (sozo, soteria in the NT Greek). Christ is the Savior of both body and soul. And the Sacraments, Holy Baptism and Holy Communion, thus are applied to the body and benefit both body and soul. We call the Eucharist, for example, "the medicine of immortality." By conferring the forgiveness of sins, they therefore promise the redemption of the body, the resurrection of the flesh--the ultimate healing--at the Last Day. "For where there is the forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation" (Small Catechism).
Sounds like she is reluctant to make the move. Are you pressuring her? Have you considered conversion to LC-MS? It sounds like you aren’t that solid in the RC faith yourself.
The Imitation of Christ is the goal, the ultimate command. Certainly the early Church did not hesitate to heal the sick.
Certainly healing/salvation are related concepts (sozo, soteria in the NT Greek). Christ is the Savior of both body and soul. And the Sacraments, Holy Baptism and Holy Communion, thus are applied to the body and benefit both body and soul.
Certainly. I understand your point of reference, it just seems limited to me.
When the graces of God are communicated to people through outward signs, that is a Sacrament. It is God, channeling through man and using common matter to effect change in the world. That's the Incarnation. That's Sacraments.
The central question has to do with the proper distinction of the Law and the Gospel. Is the big thing about the Sacraments what *we* (priest, pre-Vatican II; people, post-Vatican II) are doing for God (i.e., Law) or is the big thing what *God* is doing for us, freely, for Christ's sake (i.e., Gospel)?
This is a huge question, and I don't really have the time right now to get into it in depth. But this is a brief way of getting at the heart of the matter.
Thank you so much!
I need all the blessings I can get.
here’s what sola scriptura does to ya... ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeqeNisXE2k&mode=related&search=
Because Pastors have gotten caught up in RCIA fever, and forgotten their ability to admit seperated Christians to the Church through Penance and First Communion as soon as what is lacking in the Christian instruction is complete. RCIA is for non-Christians. Pastors tend to use RCIA as a way to get around their former duty of personally instructing converts from other Christian communities.
Why is she considered a 'convert'? She is still Christian, willing to accept a fuller understanding way of the church and way of practicing the Christian faith.
Anyone who is not a Catholic is a convert. Protestant faiths are not faiths based on the totality of divine revelation, as is the Catholic Faith, but are an admixture of divine revelation and personal opinion (stemming from the private interpretation of scriptures). One must reject the private interpretation of scripture and instead assent to the teaching of the Pope and Bishops to become a Catholic.
The Catholic Church does say we are married, but we have to apply for a "dispensation" and have another marriage ceremony. If the RCC accepts her baptism, why not our marriage (two baptized Christians who exchanged rings "In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit")? This makes her feel like our wedding in 1998 "didn't happen."
Its not accepted because you, as a Catholic, were not authorized to marry outside the Church, so there is a defect of form in your marriage. Therefore, she, in entering the Church, must have her marriage with you regularized via a dispensation from the irregularity of a defect of form.
She didn't really know this one: Why do Lutherans only have 3 sacraments (baptism, holy communion and reconciliation), as opposed to 7 in the RCC?
Because Luther denied the other Church ceremonies with sacraments. That Annointing of the Sick, Ordination, Marriage and Confirmation give grace by virtue of the ceremony being performed and are thus sacraments is confirmed by scripture (James 5.16, 2 Timothy 1.6 and 1 Timothy 4.14, Ephesians 5.32, Acts 8.14) according to the teaching of the Church.
Hi, I corrected my reply when I realized they had not been married in any church.
They were married in a Congregational church.
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