Posted on 05/26/2007 4:32:30 PM PDT by Titanites
I am a convert to the Catholic Faith from Calvinism. I loved Calvinism and owned a library full of Calvin, Luther, Warfield, Hodge, Murray, Owen, Machen, etc. as well as helped plant a local Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I knew Reformation Theology and how much hatred it generates for the Catholic Church. As a Calvinist, I could boast with the best of them. I even persecuted the Catholic Church and went after every one of them I found, beating them back with Scripture, upon Scripture, upon quotes of Luther, Calvin, etc. I found great pleasure in debating Catholics.
My one flaw was learning what the Early Church Fathers believed. A Catholic who had not fared well in a debate with me, mentioned I should read the Early Church Fathers to see just how Catholic they were. I honestly thought I would just gain more "ammo" to use in my battles.
I found Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp with my first visit to the University Library. I poured over them for months until finally I pounded the books on the table with my fists, tossed them from the fourth to the third level of the library and wept. It seemed these great martyrs for the Faith were Catholic. It had taken about 8 months of going over Clement, Augustine, Athanasius, etc. to see the Catholic Church was the Early Church. I kept coming back to Ignatius and Polycarp as I could not get them out of my mind.
Over the next two years, I read more and more on the Catholic Faith and became less and less convinced the Reformed Faith was correct. It became clear to me; it was nothing more than a novelty, spewing forth doctrines that had never been believed before. Christ promised the Holy Spirit to His Church and stated the gates of hell would not prevail against it. I thought that was a lie and for 1500 years, the Church had been without truth and the gates of hell had prevailed. It is very humbling to come to the conclusion you have been horribly wrong, even to the point of not trusting the words of our precious Lord and Saviour. Yet, I still was not ready to become a Catholic.
Then one day when I was reading the Scripture I read Paul talking about how he was the most religious Pharisee, the most upright, and you know my heart was pierced and I actually laughed about how I could claim I had been one of the best Calvinists around, but then it hit me. Was that even something to boast about? So I looked up one of the most wonderful examples of boasting the Lord mentioned. Luke 18:9-14 (Please read the Scripture as this is my paraphrase)
'Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Calvinist and the other a sinner. The Calvinist (that would be I) stood and was praying thus to himself, God, I thank thee that I am not like other people, sinners, Catholics, heretics, or even like this sinner beside me. I planted your church in this god-forsaken part of the country, I read the Scriptures and Calvin and Luther twice a week, and the rest of the week I read nothing but reformers and your Scriptures. But the sinner standing a little off to the side, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast saying, God, be merciful to me the sinner. I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."
You know who the sinner was? I turned next to Luke 5:8 because I was then looking for others who admitted they were sinners for I knew I was once the boaster but now I was the sinner. "But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus' feet saying, Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord." Peter then was able to go on and follow Jesus. Peter came home, this home became the Church, and he was the Rock it was built upon, and he was justified.
At that moment, it finally became clear I could not stay a Calvinist or stay in the OPC. I had plans to attend Westminster Seminary and those were discarded. I lost friends and was informed I must have never been a Christian in the first place.
As I became least, Christ became more. I decided the only place I could go was the home where the Apostle Peter went. I was accepted into the Catholic Church in Easter 2002. I have never been happier and I wish and pray this joy for all. I will never be the same after taking the Body and Blood of our Lord.
Fair enough.
Don't you?
Not in those terms. I don't pray that I won life's lottery.
Or would you rather not be one of the elect?
Assuming eternity has a lottery, I would prefer to win it.
BTW, what have you done to earn your salvation?
Well, I must confess that I am in a period of flux, religiously speaking, but I would answer with "accepted Christ as my saviour".
I can not find any websites about why he left the Catholic Church. But if the Rodney Beason mentioned in this St. Phillip’s Episcopal Church is the one under discussion he left Catholicism for the Episcopal Church. Now if he had gone back to be Calvinist I would say he simply rexamined the doctrines and decided that he did not believe what the Church taught and that the Reformers were correct. But usually when someone leaves Catholicism it is because they are looking for a more liberal Church. Especially in matters of sexuality. Just a hunch.
This man is now one more sheep for Christ to bring back into the sheep fold.
I forgot to supply the link http://www.stphilipsnashville.org/schedulesvsMay07.html
Saint Phillips Episcopal Church Nashville
Schedule of Services for May 2007
FLOWER CHART Paul Cost Gayle Rodney Beason
Susan Skinner
(Romans 9:15 KJV) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Who determines whether or not you will enter into the Kingdom of God?
You?
Well, I must confess that I am in a period of flux, religiously speaking, but I would answer with "accepted Christ as my saviour".
You EARNED your salvation by accepting Christ????
Or did you simply confirm your salvation (and your status as one of the elect) when you received Christ?
As opposed to the intellectual maturity of such a ridiculous comment?
Please. There's a distinction between something being intellectually stimulating and something requiring mental gymnastics. Calvinism has no shortage of the former. Your posts seem to stem from the latter.
When you're ready to stop chucking batteries from the sidelines and get in the game, feel free to grab a helmet and take the field (unless of course you're the non-helmet type).
That doesn't mean that he decided to have mercy on you before you were born, and that nothing you do in the meantime can change it.
Who determines whether or not you will enter into the Kingdom of God?
God.
You?
no
You EARNED your salvation by accepting Christ????
Need to think about it more, but earned is probably not the right word.
Or did you simply confirm your salvation (and your status as one of the elect) when you received Christ?
Not sure... but, I see, and understand the logic and the scripture behind Calvinism. But, I also see scripture and the entire theme of the New Testament that accepting Christ is a choice for you to freely make.
How to reconcile the all knowing God with Free Will? I, and others, reconcile it by not reconciling it i.e. it is a mystery.
Calvinists reconcile it by just saying there is no free will, which I think much of the new testament, as well as human experience, suggests is false. This gets back to an earlier poster who described Calvinism as lazy i.e. rather than accept that something is complex it just crosses out a major theme of the bible.
Congratulations. You have a firm mastery of a distorted charicature of Calvinism that bears little resemblence to what the Reformed faith actually believes and teaches.
Please accept this complimentary participation gift:
Please, Calvinism is for the weak-minded.
Whereas uninformed inflammatory comments bely an incredible deftness when it comes to civil conversation.
Seems to be a reasonable point to me. If everyone is already pre-elected, why evanglize? Please explain why it is wrong. Thanks.
It's not a lottery. But the cards were all dealt at the begginning of creation. Your fate was sealed before you ever took a breath.
earned is probably not the right word.
No kidding. It is a GIFT! You don't earn a gift.
But, I also see scripture and the entire theme of the New Testament that accepting Christ is a choice for you to freely make.
Indeed and if you freely make that choice then you were chosen by God from before the foundation of the earth. If you fail to make that choice, then you have exercised your free will to your own destruction.
Free will is not a great blessing to men. It is a curse. You're only hope lies in having God make you willing, and no one, in the exercise of their own free will, is willing to allow that.
This gets back to an earlier poster who described Calvinism as lazy i.e. rather than accept that something is complex it just crosses out a major theme of the bible.
My experience is that few people work as hard at "confirming their election" as committed Calvinists. Not because they feel that they need to, but because they have a burning desire to do so. It is my experience that many non-Calvinists feel a need to do good works to "secure their salvation." The Calvinist knows that his fate is entirely in the hands of God. As a non-Calvinist, I also believe that my fate is entirely in the hands of God. I wouldn't have it any other way.
On the contrary, the Reformed faith embraces the mystery of God's sovereignty and man's free will with open arms. The freedom of will which unregenerate man does not possess is not that by which one is able to choose that which he desires. The Reformed would most readily agree that man has such volitional freedom.
The trouble, friend, is with the heart of man. It is there that man is lost, enslaved in sin. Man freely chooses that which he desires, but that which he desires is in opposition to his Creator to the extent that man's will is in effect in slavery to sin and incapable of doing anything truly good. Even his most superficially pure and noble deeds are born of a selfish desire to accomplish a self-serving end.
It is the Word of God which bears this out in laying forth the universal truth that the heart of unregenerate man is dead in trespasses and sins, wicked and depraved. But for the restraining grace of God manifest in diverse ways this world would self-destruct at the hands of the evil in the stony human heart. Were He not to intervene by breathing new life into the heart of a man and quickening within him a desire which produces the gift of faith unto salvation, man would persist without fail in his rejection of the very One by whose grace he even exists.
No, friend...the Reformed faith is neither lazy nor ignorant of what the Word says about the will of man. It works diligently to hold fast to the difficult truth the Word proclaims...that by the grace of God we are what we are.
Because God in His wisdom and grace has chosen the preaching of the Gospel by men to be the instrumental means by which He accomplishes the salvation of His people. As Scripture says, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" We do not know who God's elect are, but we know what God has set forth as His means of bringing them to faith and so with joy we preach the Gospel to all men entrusting the bounty of the harvest to Him who gives the increase (1 Cor 3:7).
As I have often said, the primary focus of evangelism is to be faithful, not convincing. Just as the primary focus of our works is to be faithful, not to earn something.
The proper response of man to the understanding of the sovereignty of God is not mere resignation and disinterest but rather peace, joy, thankfulness and devotion. Could He bring the elect to faith without our participation? Most assuredly so! But He has ordained the preaching of men as the "foolishness" by which He will bring His people to faith and salvation.
And so we go and make disciples of all nations.
Ah, you must be a Calvinist after the style of this author. Otherwise you would never have made such a statement.
Incredible. What out-and-out Pelagianism. In the 4th century you would have been branded a heretic and tossed out of the Church. Today you're accepted as one of the crowd. My, how times have changed. I guess this is progress.
Many Calvinists that I know are intellectually rigorous in their theology and deeply sincere in their faith. I have found, however, that many of them have simply not been exposed to catholic (Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Anglo-Catholic) theology but instead have been fed only a caricature of the same. I have seen a number of them move away from reformed theology several years after their reading lists have been expanded. I expect the same will occur for a subset of the reformed theology gang on FR who sincerely debate on these threads.
That said, I stand very firmly grounded in the doctrines of the Reformed faith and it is equally irritating when I see others condemn something they clearly do not have a firm grasp of. Such is the case with some of the comments in the original article and in some of the responses following.
I like your tag, Fru. Amen.
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
Most Calvinists would understand your skepticism. We, too, thought God's sovereignty ended where our human will began. But a closer look at Scripture tells us God gives faith to whom He chooses, and that choice was made before the foundation of the world.
Part of the reason for that is so that men can't boast they were smart enough or pious enough to come to faith. Instead, God determined their paths and at a time of God's choosing, their ears and eyes are opened to the truth and they understand.
And thus, most importantly, our salvation is due to Christ's work on the cross, Christ's righteousness, Christ's obedience, and not our own.
It's all of Him and none of us.
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." -- Ezekiel 36:26
That reference holds little relevance, AM.
Less frequent visiting does not equate to permanent departure.
This is where Calvinists goes off into imaginative LaLa Land. To say that believing is "a work" is ridiculous because the entire New Testament differentiates between the two. Paul in Romans 4:5 writes:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness".
---worketh not, but believeth ---
Believing is not a work ---- nor is receiving ---- either scripturally or in the real world.
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