Posted on 06/05/2007 10:53:58 AM PDT by Frank Sheed
In short they pray the Our father because they do not know how to seek God on their own
No I said we approach the throne of God with OUR words not vain repetitions
Did you scan the Paternoster blog, Mother? The poor woman has a verse that looks like Dutch to me that she needs translated. She thinks it is one of the Psalms. It is in the middle of her blogging somewhere.
If you crack that riddle, you will have a friend for life.
F
“Myn Seele gebenedyt den Heere die u croont in bermhertigheyt ende ontferminghen - Psal. 102” I’m not sure how to translate this (German? Dutch? Low German?) and I can’t find the verse offhand in either Psalm 102 or 103, but it seems to be something beginning “My soul [blesses?] the Lord...
From April 2, 2007
You said, "I have attended MANY services at Baptist churches, AOG's , Methodist ,.Wesleyan, Nazarene, Church of Christ and many other non denominational churches, I am a Presbyterian and I have never heard the "Our Father" used as a part of the service NEVER."
You were dead wrong about the Prebys, and I'm pretty sure you're dead wrong about the others too. My grandfather-in-law was a Methodist minister, and I'm now holding his personal hymnal with the Order of Worship in the back. Order of Worship I, item 7 is "The Lord's Prayer - which may be said or sung". Order of Worship II, item 12. Order of Worship III, item 6. Order of Worship IV (morning or evening prayer), item 7 "to be said by all."
I'm not going to go hunt out all the other denominations for your benefit, as Cromwell said, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."
NYUK!
The Apocalypse Of Saint John
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars. And from his mouth came out a sharp two edged sword: and his face was as the sun shineth in his power. 17 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last, 18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.
God knows everything that is or will be. God started His Church and inspired the Apostolic men to write the Books of the Bible. And God knew that by the time the twenty-first century came along that there would be over 20,000 different denominations all contradicting each other on how to interpret the Bible. God wants us to know the truth with confident conviction, because only clear thinking will lead to that certainty of conviction that will enable a person to die to himself. No one dies to himself for just a fuzzy maybe. And only by dying to ourselves can we truly follow Jesus Christ and have true joy and everlasting life in Him. How can we know with absolute certainty what the correct interpretation of the Bible is ?
We read in Isaiah 22 how it is the transfer of the keys that designates Eliakim as the new master of the palace.
Isaiah 22:15-22 “… go to that official, Shebna, master of the palace,
… I will thrust you from your office and pull you down from your station.
On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim … and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem … I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.”
It was the transferring of the keys that denoted the transfer of power to the new successor of this office as the king’s representative, his regent, the master of the palace.
It was God the Father who had picked Peter to be the one to proclaim Jesus as the Messiah. And it was upon hearing this that Jesus alludes to that passage in Isaiah 22 above and gives the keys to Saint Peter.
Matthew 16:13-19 “When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, ‘Who do people say that the Son of Man is ?’
They replied, ‘Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’
He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am ?’
Simon Peter said in reply, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’
Jesus said to him in reply, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’ “
The keys represent absolute power to rule. They are owned by the King of Israel who entrusts them to his representative the “master of the palace.” Christ is the true King of Israel. Just as in Isaiah 22 above where the keys are handed down to the successors of the king’s prime minister we see Christ giving His keys to his designated “master of the palace,” his chief minister, his vicar, St. Peter.
That the “gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it” also implies succession for Peter’s office. Peter died. Yet, Christ’s promise is true. Peter who became the Bishop of Rome has a successor. The future tense used in Matthew 16, “will build” and “will give you the keys,” refers to what Christ will give to St. Peter after the Resurrection.
Jesus knew this teaching would be hard, that is to follow Him completely means to trust Him completely. Perhaps that is why Jesus gave his teaching about taking up our cross shortly after this revelation given near Caesarea Philippi, as we can see in the parallel passage in Luke.
Luke 9:20-25 “Then he said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am ?’ Peter said in reply, ‘The Messiah of God.’
… He said, ‘The Son of Man must … be killed and on the third day be raised.’
Then he said to all, ‘If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. What profit is there for one to gain the whole world yet lose or forfeit himself ?’ “
God wants us to know the truth. Jesus knew when He started His Church that there would be confusion over how to interpret the Bible. That is why the institution of the Papacy is such a gift from God. The alternative is where each person is his own pope, and relying on the assumption that the Holy Spirit has guided his own judgment and his alone and to the contrary of over 20,000 different “Bible Alone” believing Churches as to how to interpret the Bible.
Peter is the Rock on which the Church is built. By himself, Peter is just a man, weak and a sinner. However, Christ is God and God is the Rock of our faith, (1 Cor. 10:14) it is the Rock of Christ that is working through Saint Peter that makes Peter’s Rock-ness faithful and sure. Peter is no longer just alone. It is the Holy Spirit that imparts to Peter the Rock-ness of Jesus Christ as he foretold in Matthew 16:19.
Peter, and his successors, and those in union with him give us infallible guidance as to how to follow our Lord Jesus Christ. We find true joy in knowing, loving, and serving Jesus Christ [according to His will.]
Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” NAB
Luke 22:29-32 “ … and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.’ “ RSV
The meaning of the original Greek reveals that Satan had demanded to have “you -plural,” - meaning all of the disciples - but Christ says that He prayed for “you -singular” meaning Peter uniquely. (see KJV)
John 21:15 “Jesus said to Simon Peter, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these ?’ He said to him, ‘Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.’ He said to him, ‘Feed my lambs.’ “ NAB
Jesus gave over to Saint Peter the care of all of His sheep.
Now the only question is how many Christian sheep belong to Jesus ?
……………Answer: All of them.
[ All Bible quotations unless otherwise stated are from the New American Bible.]
I was confining my comments to Christian churches.
The PCUSA is MARGINALLY Christian . I have attended a few services at the one near me and NO OUR FATHER was said on those occasions.
I can only tell you that in 30 years of weekly attendance and often mid week attendance I have never heard the Our Father prayed.
It is my guess that the order of services you are looking at are not followed by the majority of the churches of that denomination with any regularity, it is rather like you
taking “St Joseph’s Trinitine missal” to mass. It is a Catholic “prayer book” it is a product of the church but no longer applicable to catholic mass
Protestants do not use “prayer books” in their services.
I grew up Protestant, mainly Methodist, but with some Baptist and Presbyterian stays along the way, and every one said the Lord’s Prayer.
Sorry, but he said nothing about atoning.
WOW!! And you aren’t Catholic?
My best friend is a Missionary Baptist that was brought up to DISLIKE Catholic everything very much....but her childbirth experience was going so badly that she started praying to MARY, and then everything went fine!!
Shortened version:
Keys in the Bible always symbolize authority:
Revelation 1:18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.
Isaiah 22:22 And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Peter is the only apostle given a ‘key’ by Jesus, setting him apart:
Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
QUESTION: Isn’t this authority given to all the apostles, just as ‘binding and loosing’ was in Matthew 18:18?
ANSWER: The Douay Rheims (and King James Version also) use ‘thee’ to signify a singular subject or person, and you for plural. Thus, Jesus was specifically addressing Peter.
ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS:
1. There is no other disciple mentioned as frequently and prominently in the New Testament as Peter.
2. Peter served as:
a. Group spokesman following Pentecost (Acts 1:14 +)
b. God chooses Peters in Acts 10_11 to introduce the Gentiles into the Church, and those who objected ‘held their peace’ (Acts 11:18) at Peter’s testimony
c. Peter is a target of imprisonment and miraculous escape (rather than being a martyr as James)
d. Peter’s words are respected and authoritative at the first Church Council in Jerusalem (Act 15:7 +)
e. Paul specifically visits Peter before working for the Church: Galatians 1:18 Then, after three years, I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days.
3. Only Peter is commissioned specifically by Jesus to “feed my lambs” (John 21:15).
Aside from references to Christ, the Greek word lamb (arnion) is only used in he
New Testament to refer to the disciples (aren) in Luke 10:3. Thus, Jesus is commissioning to lead and care for the other apostles.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1845279/posts?page=164#164
Have you seen this and the post preceding it? The blogger needs translation help!
172 posted on 06/05/2007 7:52:17 PM MDT by Suzy Quzy
I have not a clue as to what you are addressing.
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