Protestants and the rosary

Paternosters Blogspot ^ | February 26, 2007 | Chris Laning

[Frank Sheed]

I grew up Protestant in the Northeastern U.S., in an area with many Irish and Italian families, so most of my playmates when I was in elementary school were Catholic. This was somewhat (ahem!) before Vatican II, and both Protestant and Catholic kids were taught by their parents (and sometimes even in Sunday School) to regard the other with suspicion, if not downright hostility. My Catholic playmates, for instance, said they were told they would spend eternity in Hell if they (literally!) so much as set foot inside a Protestant church building.

Boy, have things changed. While there are still plenty of Protestants who believe the Roman church is the Scarlet Woman of Babylon, for the most part Catholics and Protestants now acknowledge each other as fellow Christians, are often fairly relaxed about attending each other's worship services, and I suspect that informal, unofficial sharing of Communion is more common than the authorities on both sides would like to think. There are still plenty of incompatibilities (women priests, to name one) but I don't see that degree of almost superstitious mistrust of the "other" any more.

The status of the Virgin Mary is a point of difference between Catholics and Protestants, of course, and that's one of the reasons Protestants tend to be rather wary of the rosary. Unfortunately, I think people brought up Catholic often demonstrate how little they understand about their "separated brethren" when they blithely suggest that Protestants can pray the rosary too.



There are four main points I can think of about the rosary that give many Protestants problems. Briefly they are (from the Protestant point of view):
(1) What about Jesus's prohibition of "vain repetitions" in prayer?
(2) Does the Rosary give Mary too much honor?
(3) Do saints actually hear the prayers of living people?
(4) Is it legitimate to ask saints for favor?

I should make it clear here that when I say "Protestants" in this discussion, I am not including modern Anglicans or Episcopalians. There are certainly Anglicans who do say the rosary, either in the same form common to Roman Catholics or some other form, such as the modern Anglican rosary (which I still want to write about sometime). But what Americans usually call "mainstream" Protestants (Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.), and essentially all of the more evangelical and conservative Protestants, are generally opposed to the rosary as a Roman practice, and that's who I'm referring to here.

As I've said, Catholics do sometimes cheerfully assert that Protestants, too, can "honor" the Virgin Mary and pray the rosary. But I've noticed that somehow, all the Catholic stories that circulate about Protestants praying the rosary tend to end with the story's Protestant becoming a Catholic. If those are the only stories you ever hear, the (inadvertent) message is "If you start praying the rosay, you'll become Catholic" -- as though the rosary were the first step down a slippery slope!

I noticed this on Rosary Workshop's "Why pray the rosary?" page and mentioned it to the website's owner, Margot Carter-Blair -- who shared my amusement, once I'd pointed it out. Margot is now looking for some good stories about Protestants praying the rosary who stay Protestant.

Hmmm. Looks like this is the start of another series of articles....



The first challenge Protestants frequently offer is Matthew chapter 6, verse 7, where Jesus says (in the original King James 1611 spelling): "But when yee pray, use not vaine repetitions, as the heathen doe. For they thinke that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

This verse has had various English translations. Wycliffe's version from around 1400 says: "But in preiyng nyle yee speke myche, as hethene men doon, for thei gessen that thei ben herd in her myche speche." ("But in praying, nil [do not] ye speak much, as heathen men do, for they think that they are heard in their much speech.")

The Bishop's Bible (1568) says, amusingly, "But when ye pray, babble not much, as the heathen do. For they thynke that they shalbe heard, for theyr much bablinges sake."

One modern version puts it: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words." In all the versions the next verse says "Therefore be not lyke them, for your father knoweth, what thynges ye haue nede of, before ye aske of hym."

The King James version, however, is so entrenched in the English language that "vain repetitions" is the actual phrase the debate tends to focus on. Protestants generally assert that any repetition of the same prayer over and over must be "vain" by definition, since God really only needs to be asked once, and repeating the same words doesn't add anything.

The usual (rather feeble) Catholic defense is to argue that Christ didn't mean to prohibit all repetition but only vain repetition -- which is a very incomplete answer, since it leaves open the question of how you tell whether it's vain or not.

I think there's a point here, though: saying the same thing over and over doesn't necessarily mean it's less sincere. Parents and children, husbands and wives tell each other "I love you" over and over, and it doesn't seem to mean any less to them for being repeated.

Protestants generally don't see that their own argument isn't completely consistent. There may be no particular virtue in repeating the same prayer over again, but Protestants will cheerfully pray the "Our Father..." weekly and daily throughout their lives anyway. Many Protestants are taught that "true" prayer is spontaneous and from the heart, expressed in one's own words or wordless desires -- but if that were literally followed at all times, we'd all be praying like Quakers, who only pray as they feel "inspired" to do so. But in fact, most Protestant worship services do include standard, pre-written prayers in which everyone is expected to join. I was brought up, for instance, saying one that begins "Almighty and merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep...." every Sunday without fail.

I think both sides would admit that the idea of saying a prayer 10 or 100 or some other "round number" of times is something humans have dreamed up for our own satisfaction, not something God particularly cares about. (100 is only a round number if you're using a base-10 number system, anyway!) So perhaps the question that needs to be addressed is whether or not it's a good thing to allow our human preferences for certain numbers to affect our prayers this way. I can certainly see that reasonable adults could have different opinions on this.

to be continued

posted by Chris at 11:04 AM  

[tiki]

It’s at 5AM here but I leave the TV on EWTN and sometimes wake up and say it.

[Uri’el-2012]

In many Messianic congregations,
communion ( with wine and matzoh)
is celebrated on the first shabbat
following the new moon ( Hodesh )

b'shem Yah'shua

[N3WBI3]

So even though the word means, in the greek, repetitious strongs is pretty accurate and you could always just use a greek dictionary. But because the English words has a double meaning and you want it to mean something youre going to go with your gut?

[N3WBI3]

So even though the word means repetitious, prattle, you're going to just accept the fact that it means something completely different?

Look I honestly think saying 100 our fathers is not a sin, there is nothing per se that is wrong with it (IMHO) its just not effective prayer and its the opposite of what Jesus was telling us to do. He said don't pray in public to draw attention pray in private and when you’re there don’t just prattle words to God over and over again because thats what pagans do. I don't even think its bad if you start your morning with an our father *every morning* followed by a more personal prayer, a more deeply thought out prayer.

But to hand someone a rosary and say ‘if you say 10 our fathers it has this significance’ when that time is better spent really meditating on Gods glory your hurting your prayer life one of the strongest part of your relationship to God.

[mockingbyrd]

I don't even think its bad if you start your morning with an our father *every morning* followed by a more personal prayer, a more deeply thought out prayer.

I don't understand how one does not make the Our Father an extremely personal prayer. I mean every word that I say, each time that I say it. It is such a powerful experience to speak to the Father in words Our Savior gave us.

How can you say the Our Father and not have a truly, deeply religious experience?

[higgmeister]

The prayer that Jesus gave us is "NOT EFFECTIVE PRAYER"? I really can't believe you said that.

That is not what was said.

What was stated was; saying it one hundred times at once is just not effective prayer and its the opposite of what Jesus was telling us to do.

The emphasis is on pointing out that repeating it one hundred times or even just ten times is heard no better than saying it only once.

[tiki]

ECC 1:9 What has been is what will be and what has been done is what will be done; and there is nothing new under the sun.

If anyone thinks that they have said a prayer that God hasn't heard from someone else at some time or another, they are deceived. It is all repetition for God. In fact, it is a little conceited to think that your very own prayer is more effective and efficacious than using God's inspired Scripture to pray. The Jews and later the Christians (Catholics) used the Psalms as prayers.

[tiki]

repeating it one hundred times or even just ten times

Revelation 4:8-11

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

“ Holy, holy, holy,[a] Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!”

9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

11 “ You are worthy, O Lord,[b] To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist[c] and were created.”

I don't know, but I wonder if God has asked them to stop their vain repetition.

[Running On Empty]

For crying out loud there’s whole lot of assuming going on around here about whether somebody’s prayer is done right, or heard right. The Lord is perfectly capable of understanding the prayers of His own, however they come to Him. He’s the great Interpreter of what’s going on and no thanks to us humans who think we can take account about such matters as He can.

I think it’s time to let go and let God do the hearing and the interpreting.

sandy and tiki, pray a Our Father for me in my time of need.
I’ll return the favor.

God bless and pax Christi

ROE

[lastchance]

I agree. The rosary is Christological. Why else would His blessed Mother give it to us?

It may not be approved but when my father in law was recovering from bypass surgery I prayed a healing rosary. I meditated on the miracles of healing that Christ performed in the Gospels. Praying the Ave while thinking of Jesus’ loving kindness brought peace to my heart. I had full confidence that Christ would grace those doctors and my father in law to restore him to full health.

[Running On Empty]

Ping to #231

[LordBridey]

But to hand someone a rosary and say ‘if you say 10 our fathers it has this significance’ when that time is better spent really meditating on Gods glory your hurting your prayer life one of the strongest part of your relationship to God.

Meditation is precisely what the rosary is. I view the repetition of the prayers, though not without value in themselves, as something of a timing device. They provide a structure to instill discipline in prayer.

When my family gathers for the rosary we usually employ a devotional book that provides subjects for meditation. This evening, we meditated on Judas' betrayal. With our voices united in prayer, and our fingers moving across the beads, our minds contemplated Judas' treachery. We considered how Jesus would rather be scourged by frank enemies than kissed by treacherous friends, how our sins hurt more than the crimes of men who hate Him, how Judas committed two sins, one of betrayal, but the other far graver, that of despair. Realizing what an aweful thing he had done, Judas despaired, and doubted the mercy of God. We also thought about how Judas flung the thirty pieces of silver into the temple, and how we lose God with sin, and lose whatever we prefer to God. And we meditated on how Judas didn't care for Christ's way of reigning on earth. He had listened to Jesus talk about the cross and the blessings of poverty and Judas was disgusted by it. He hanged himself. By refusing the cross he lost eternal happiness.

Deep stuff, but that is where the rosary leads. Into the depths of the gospel.

[tiki]

:-) I don’t think any prayer is not approved if it is from the heart. There are many ways of saying the Rosary but the most important is keeping Jesus up front and in our thoughts. I think that was a wonderful way to pray the rosary.

[lastchance]

We forget how prayer was once such an essential part of our ancestors' daily lives. The very hours of the day were structured around prayer. The illiterate peasant, the learned lord, all knew their psalter. It was not only the religious who prayed the hours. The day was God’s and it was seen only as right that it be filled with prayer.

We have clocks now and datebooks too often we fit prayer in like a welcome but unexpected guest. Isn’t that a shame? The Rosary and other devotion grab us and say slow down this is God’s place and time. Come worship Him.

[tiki]

Will do and thanks for the gentle reproof.

[markomalley]

I had to buy a little set of Leatherman miniature pliers just to repair my rosary when I break it. I am hard on my stuff.

Gee...and I just gave up using wired rosaries. I now strictly use string rosasries: they last a whole lot longer.

[markomalley]

Look forward to seeing you wear one of these:

Hope your discernment goes well for you and that you're at peace regardless of your decision.

[trisham]

I do appreciate it.