Posted on 08/03/2007 4:32:13 PM PDT by topcat54
But the Scriptures do not bear this out.
Ephesians 2:7 says "that in the ages [aeons] to come...", and in Matthew 12:32 Jesus says: "Whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him in this age [aeon], neither in the age to come." So there was atleast one age to come and probably more.
does Heb. 9:26 testify that Christ appeared at the end of the ages to put away sin?
Sure but what is meant by the phrase: "the end of the ages"???? Clearly there had been earlier "ages" and there were "ages" to come.
The first half would be called "the beginning of the ages [aeons]" and the last half would be called "the end of the ages [aeons]" ---- much like we call the Sunday-Monday-Tuesday the "beginning of the week" and Thursday-Friday-Saturday the "end of the week".
The "age" in which Jesus appeared was the latter half of those ages, thus called "the end of the ages". So Jesus appeared not only at the end of a particular age [aeon] but also at the end [last half] of the ages [aeons] --- all of which were "framed by the word of God". [Heb 11:3]
That is a different issue, and I agree that there were past “ages” (plural) and a future “age to come” (singular). The “ages” are past and we are presently in the “age to come”.
However, you were the one denying that Heb. 9:26 was referring to the "end of the ages" (plural) wrt Christ's coming to put away sin for His redeemed.
I take it now that you have backed away from that position.
The first half would be called "the beginning of the ages [aeons]" and
Where is this language used in Scripture? You seem to be wanting to twist things just enough to some end. Perhaps it futurist presuppositions getting the best of you.
But Paul writes in Ephesians 2:7: "...that in the ages to come ..." --- that's plural, He was writing in the "age to come" about still more "ages" yet to come.
However, you were the one denying that Heb. 9:26 was referring to the "end of the ages" (plural) wrt Christ's coming to put away sin for His redeemed.
No I wasn't. Reread my responses to you. I questioned your implication that the "ages" ended there in the 1st century --- which you now admit they didn't.
Furthermore you have now taken a bold leap toward the dispensational position by finally realizing that there were "ages" [aeons] charted out by the Scriptures, and what the Scripture calls "ages [aeons]", others often refer to as "dispensations". Sshhhhh ---- I won't tell anybody if you don't.
Let’s read it in context:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.When has or will God show the “riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus”? Well, the context makes it pretty clear that Paul is talking about the present condition of God’s people. He has “made us alive together with Christ”. That sounds pretty gracious. He has also “and raised us up together” and “made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”. Granted, there is a future physical resurrection of God’s people yet to be enjoyed. But Paul does not diminish our present condition of being spiritually alive with Christ and seated in heaven, rather he exalts in it. God continues to work out His salvation program for His people in this age to come.
and what the Scripture calls "ages [aeons]", others often refer to as "dispensations".
Hardly, but it’s a nice diversion tactic.
So then, putting together all the scriptures that we have quoted, how many ages have there been and will there be??? My estimate is eight. What is yours???
There is no way to relate what are commonly known as "dispensations" ala Mr. Scofield with the ages spoken of in the Bible.
Oh there are more than that. Logical reading of the scriptures tells us that.
Hebrews 9:26 tells us that "now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” There had to have been earlier ages for the one in which Jesus was crucified to be called "the end of the ages". And He was crucified in one age, and yet spoke of an "age to come" several times --- that's two of those "end ages".
Then Paul in Ephesians 2:7 writing in that "age to come" of which Jesus spoke, tells us that there are still ages [plural] yet to come ---- that would be ages three and four.
Therefore since there are four of what are called the "end ages", then there must have also been atleast four "earlier or beginning ages". Four plus four makes eight ---- right???
There is no way to relate what are commonly known as "dispensations" ala Mr. Scofield with the ages spoken of in the Bible.
Sure there is. Dispensationalists identify the 5th age as the one in which Jesus was crucified, the Mosaic Law Age, then "age to come" as the 6th age or the Church Age, then the 7th as the Millenial Age, and the 8th age as the Age Without End. Amen.
It comes from a logical reading of the Scriptures that you and I have already quoted. What Scripture calls "ages", dispensationalists call "dispensations".
Not following that line of reasoning at all.
Where did you get lost?
When you got to the number four.
Well then stick with the number three and we'll take up the number four again next semester.
I'm having trouble with the logic and/or hermeneutics that gets to any specific number greater than one. I think you missed a step in your proof, professor.
Paul in Ephesians 2 writes: " 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
The word "ages" [aeons] in verse 7 is plural and those "ages" [aeons] were/are yet to come as of Paul's writing. That makes atleast two ages yet future and the one in which Paul is writing a third age, right??? Isn't that atleast three ages right there alone???
What sort of "ages" was Paul speaking of? There is nothing in this passage (or anywhere else) to suggest a connection between what Paul refers to as "ages to come" and what some folks have in mind when they say "dispensation". (Of course there is not much to relate what some folks have in mind when they say "dispensation" to anything in the Bible.)
I believe Paul was merely using an idiomatic phrase to describe "the future". (There is no Greek word in the NT for "future". The closest seems to be the word loipo which means "that which remains".)
I think that by applying some hyper-literal interpretation to the phrase misses the point.
hmmm...I didn't know that. AND, after a quick look at the KJV...it doesn't appear at all in the KJV.
Matt 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
...seems to make this consistent?
The "ages" that he was speaking of when he chose to use the word "aion" again and again and again rather than another word or words.
There is nothing in this passage (or anywhere else) to suggest a connection between what Paul refers to as "ages to come" and what some folks have in mind when they say "dispensation".
There certainly is as well as in the rest of his writings especially when coupled with those of Luke and John and the others.
(Of course there is not much to relate what some folks have in mind when they say "dispensation" to anything in the Bible.)
And your evidence for that is what???? ---- the clear blue sky overhead.
Remember: "insisting does not good exegesis make" [topcat54]
I believe Paul was merely using an idiomatic phrase to describe "the future". (There is no Greek word in the NT for "future". The closest seems to be the word loipo which means "that which remains".)
Oh please! Certainly he is describing the future. What else would it be. And he is doing it in the way the NT Greek does in so many cases with the use of the word "to come". We do it in English as well and other languages in order to be more specific regarding the time frame of which we are speaking.
Paul could have said: "in the hours to come", "in the days to come", "in the weeks to come", "in the years to come", "in the generations to come", "in the age [aeon] to come", or "forever and ever". But Paul uses the plural: "in the ages [aions] to come".
He used the plural [ages] in some places to convey a more distant future and the singular [age] in other places to convey a nearer future for the "age" in which he was writing. If he didn't mean what he said then why didn't he say what he meant. And if he said what he meant, then why is it so hard to believe what he said???
I think that by applying some hyper-literal interpretation to the phrase misses the point.
Hmmm: "hyper-literal interpretation" --- Did you mean that literally, figuratively, hyper-literally, or hyper-figuratively??? Please identify which of your words that the reader is free to interpret any way they so choose.
Yes, but how he used it is more important than that he used it. That is where your analysis is lacking.
You seem to be trying to make a point by raw assertion. We're still waiting for the exegesis that supports your theory.
And your evidence for that is what???? ---- the clear blue sky overhead.
I don't need to prove anything. The burden is on you to show how Paulk's use of "aeon" is the same as the modern interpretation of "dispensation". All you have done so far is proof by insisting.
Who is "We"???
I agree with you on this. The Bride of Christ is the Church.
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