"Dr. Armageddon" and the Future of Israel

American Vision ^ | 7/31/2007 | Gary DeMar

[Uncle Chip]

since the bodily resurrection does not occur until Rev. 20

The bodily resurrection begins with the Rapture and ends with Rev 20. They are all part of the First Resurrection.

The phrase "This is the First Resurrection" means that these here in Rev 20 are part of the First Resurrection --- the last part of it.

These will be the rapture-resurrected saints with their new spiritual bodies, riding their "metaphorical" horses of course.

[Seven_0]

The bodily resurrection begins with the Rapture and ends with Rev 20. They are all part of the First Resurrection.

The first resurrection began nearly 2000 years ago. I believe that if there is a second resurrection, Christ would be it, too.

[Ping-Pong]

Uncle Chip - Obviously God's army will have horses at the battle for Jerusalem, so just who is going to say unequivocably that the other side will not have horses as well.

The other side will also have "horses" but I don't believe they are literal horses.

Strong's #2462 horse, cavalry force, member of a cavalry corps; - horseman.

The references all have to do with war. These are armies, the armies of end times (both good and evil)

TopCat - If they are flesh and blood horses, who are the riders of the horses that make up the “army”? If they are angels, are we to believe that incorporeal angelic spirits are riding flesh-and-blood horses? If they are men, since the bodily resurrection does not occur until Rev. 20, the same question, what are disembodied souls doing on flesh-and-blood horses?

God tells us of nation being against nation so many will be flesh and blood. Others will be the army that comes with Christ and also the army of Satan and his fallen angels.

Topcat, why do you believe they are "disembodied souls"? Again, I don't think it will be literal horses at all but rather the machines of war (cavalry force).

[Uncle Chip]

The first resurrection began nearly 2000 years ago.

Correct --- but no one else has been resurrected yet except Jesus, and they won't be resurrected until His 2nd coming, and all those resurrections will still be called "the first resurrection":

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power ...." [Rev 20:6]

The following is the second resurrection and it is not recommended:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."[Rev 20:12-15]

[Seven_0]

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God

If this is a resurrection, then why does it say they are dead? If it is the second resurrection, how does it come before the second death?

[invoman]

but no one else has been resurrected yet except Jesus,

Careful here, Uncle Chip:

Matt 25:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many

[Uncle Chip]

Matt 25:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many

I'm aware of that, but did these receive spiritual bodies at that time, and then were they taken up into heaven, or did they then just return to the grave after appearing to many. I am not sure either way. But we do have this from 1 Cor 15:

"But now is Christ risen from the dead and become the first fruits of them that slept...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive; but everyman in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God, even the Father ..." [vs 20-24]

[Uncle Chip]

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God If this is a resurrection, then why does it say they are dead?

Because they are the dead brought back to life [resurrected] in their old bodies for the sole purpose of facing the Great White Throne Judgment.

If it is the second resurrection, how does it come before the second death?

Everyone who takes part in this second resurrection faces the GWT Judgment and dies the second death. They are all cast into the Lake of Fire [v15].

[Ping-Pong]

If this is a resurrection, then why does it say they are dead? If it is the second resurrection, how does it come before the second death?

I believe it is because they are "spiritually dead". They have not made it all the way yet but they will be taught during the millennium. Then they will either be part of the "second resurrection" or they will experience the second death which is death of their soul.

[Seven_0]

I always thought that there is a physical death and a spiritual death. I assume that there is a physical resurrection and a spiritual resurrection. Typology would seem to suggest this. If you do not die the second death, you will not need the second resurrection. If you die the second death you will not be offered the second resurrection. Thus, if there is a second resurrection, it could apply only to Christ.

I assume that since Christ did not die the physical death in our place, that it is the spiritual death that he was talking about when he said, “he that believeth in me shall never die”

Seven

[Ping-Pong]

I always thought that there is a physical death and a spiritual death. I assume that there is a physical resurrection and a spiritual resurrection

I don't believe a soul has EVER died. We have been living since He created our souls and will until we go into eternity with Him (at the 1st or 2nd resurrection) or.....we go into the lake of fire. That is the second death.

that it is the spiritual death that he was talking about when he said, “he that believeth in me shall never die”

I think so too.

...Ping

[topcat54]

The bodily resurrection begins with the Rapture and ends with Rev 20.

There is no "rapture" (resurrection) in Revelation other than what we find in chapter 20.

[invoman]

I assume that since Christ did not die the physical death in our place, that it is the spiritual death that he was talking about when he said, “he that believeth in me shall never die”

Jesus ALSO said:

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

[Uncle Chip]

There is no "rapture" (resurrection) in Revelation other than what we find in chapter 20.

There is in Corinthians and Thessalonians. Anyway Revelation 20 is not a rapture-resurrection; it's merely a resurrection of those who died during the Great Tribulation. All those described in Rev 20 were martyred and died; they weren't raptured. So the rapture-resurrection described by Paul in Thess and Cor had to have taken place before that time.

[Seven_0]

If this is a resurrection, then why does it say they are dead? If it is the second resurrection, how does it come before the second death?

I believe it is because they are "spiritually dead". They have not made it all the way yet but they will be taught during the millennium. Then they will either be part of the "second resurrection" or they will experience the second death which is death of their soul.

The people in Revelation 20:12 are physically dead, standing before God. You say that they are also spiritually dead. In verse 14 they die again. How many deaths and resurrections are there?

Seven

[topcat54]

Matt 25:52-53

I would not call this a resurrection, but a resuscitation.

Resurrection is when we receive our glorified bodies. Resuscitation is what happened to Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, Tabitha, and others. As far as we can tell their bodies were no changed and they went on to live normal lives, age, and pass away into glory, awaiting the final resurrection.

Their purpose was to testify to Jesus' messiahship.

[topcat54]

There is in Corinthians and Thessalonians.

Again, there is no "rapture" resurrection separate from the final resurrection (Rev. 20), anywhere in the Bible.

[Seven_0]

I would not call this a resurrection, but a resuscitation.

Resurrection is when we receive our glorified bodies.

What about the resurrection of damnation in John 5:29

[Ping-Pong]

The people in Revelation 20:12 are physically dead, standing before God. You say that they are also spiritually dead. In verse 14 they die again. How many deaths and resurrections are there?

I don't think of it as a physical death but a physical change - They are in their spiritual bodies. Those that have passed on before us are in that body now and when Christ returns:

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53.For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

At that time we will all be in an incorruptible body (for the millennium) - no one has died yet, there was just a change. Our bodies are gone but no one is dead. Some, at that time, have also become immortal. Those are the ones who take part in the first resurrection (Rev.20:4-6). The others, who are in an incorruptible body but are still liable to die (not immortal) must wait until the second resurrection. They are considered the "spiritually" dead (Rev.20:12) and are judged according to their works during the millennium. They aren't judged on their belief in Christ as they can see Him. They know there is a Christ.

So.....When our spirit leaves our bodies we change. Some become immortal but others are considered spiritually dead - that is the first death. The second death is that of their soul:

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

That is what I believe those scriptures mean. Another meaning has been explained to me and it sounds plausible but I don't understand it well enough to explain it. I don't know if anyone will ever be certain until we are there but I do know - I want to be part of the first resurrection.

[Uncle Chip]

Again, there is no "rapture" resurrection separate from the final resurrection (Rev. 20), anywhere in the Bible.

Not true ----

The rapture resurrection probably takes place somewhere between Rev 10:7 [in the days of the voice of the 7th angel when the Mystery of God is finished] and Rev 14:4 [These are they who follow the Lamb wherever He goes; these were redeemed from among men, the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb].

Furthermore I Corinthians 15 reads:

"20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

[So there has been a rapture-resurrection right here at His coming --- right??? What happens next:]

"24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

[The resurrections in Rev 20 come after "He puts down all rule and all authority and all power" in Rev 19, you know, when the fowl of the air will be feasting on the "flesh" of "kings, captains, mighty men, and horses" -------- "horses" -------- what are they doing there??? --------- Well, I guess Zechariah must have been right after all.