Posted on 08/06/2007 11:01:25 AM PDT by Frank Sheed
“The Peeping Thomists!” Oh, that is classic!
;-o)
Nunc, vade et amplius iam noli peccare.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1877167/posts
This cannot be described. You’ve got to see it to believe it. Especially Kalashnikitty.
F
Anthem of the Hymn Writers (after Tom Conry's Anthem)
We write hymns, we're composers,
We are fans of one another.
We make hymn books for tomorrow
While we rake in cash today.
We're the best, we're the greatest,
So our hymns are all you need.
And our songs are all you hear in church,
The only ones indeed.
Of all my delendas above, I think "NPM delenda est" is the most important. That organisation is the locus of all that is evil in modern "music ministry".
My daughter has a bumper sticker on her Volvo station wagon. A Hello Kitty in full pink attire is holding a large Hudson Bay axe. Caption: "I am a nice person. Come closer."
She says it counteracts to some degree the liberal impression created by the Volvo wagon.
She wants an "I [heart] my German Shepherd" bumper sticker with a Papal flag.
Thankfully our parish uses The Liturgical Press, which isn't bad. I'd love for us to have Adoremus hymnals, but I guess it's not going to happen anytime soon. The choir will keep using the St. Gregory hymnal, though.
We significantly startled the new Archbishop when we had (thanks to the St. Gregory hymnal) all the Propers in place for his first pastoral visitation. We did our best to "Latinize" his first name, Wilton, but it wasn't easy!
The "National ASSociation of Pastoral Musicians" (NPM) is not in the same category of thing as the "Oregon Catholic Press" (OCP). It's more in the line of a professional society (like IEEE for engineers) ... it exists to give liturgial abusers a forum to exchange bad ideas, compare notes, encourage each other in promoting bad music and liturgical abuse, and otherwise advance the cause of turning the Mass into a mess of heresy, confusion, and misguided entertainment.
NPM delenda est
. . . the whole darned lot delenda est.
You mean the "hootenanny hymnal" issue? We use it at our church, and it contains the most grating music I have ever been subjected to. Horrible!!!
Yes, the distinction between liturgical and non-liturgical is an important one...but what I think is the thrust of my argument is that with time and long usage, the extra-liturgical can *become* liturgical.
But let me get real practical here. I have not heard that anyone has any plans to suppress the Low Mass, and with it continuing to exist, we are virtually guaranteeing the existence of hymns in the liturgy. The Low Mass without hymns is just very very stark for a Sunday, and if we plan on keeping it, there will be a natural desire to adorn it with, yes, extra-liturgical singing. Also, in those places where a trained schola is hard to come by (and no one can deny that the Latin propers are a hard thing to learn and do effectively), hymns are a nice substitute.
Anyway, I remain unconvinced that the use of hymnody at points in the Mass is not a legitimate organic development. Even before the Council, we saw it developing gradually around various parts of the world for centuries with the German singmesse and with mission Masses. Hymnody during the Mass became like vernacular "propers"--particularly so prior to the mid-1800s when (I think) vernacular hand missals first came into being. Before that time, remember, people were not reading along with the priest.
Now maybe the Dialogue Mass or something similar will make the need for hymns less...I dunno. But, just personally now, I think there is a strong current of liturgical development since, oh probably the Reformation, which is moving in the direction of hymnody, particularly in the vernacular.
I'll look for that, thanks.
And BTW, I agree with all that. Hymnody can come in not as substitutes for the ordinaries or the responses but mainly in certain situations (Low Mass, sung Masses where the schola is not up to the task) to slip in where the propers would normally be sung.
High Masses, of course, should always use the Roman propers.
Please.
It’s NAP(AL)M
Better descriptor.
Recall that in the Old Rite, VERNACULAR is NOT permitted from the beginning through the end of the Mass.
That applies to hymns, by the way.
Regrets that you and I will not likely agree on using hymns during the Mass; but my Pius X trump-card beats your “old German/French/Irish/Italian/American custom” card.
Pius was VERY clear when he distinguished “sacred music” (used at the Mass) from “hymnody,” (used for pious practices/devotions.)
There’s no good reason whatever that a congregation cannot be taught a simple Gregorian ordinary and one musician cannot read either the Rossini/psalm-tone Propers OR the actual Chant.
You want hymns during Mass? Then teach the Adoro Te, Ave Verum, and the Ave Maria
The whole idea of the Regensburg reformers was to get rid of all those crappy hymns-during-Mass. That’s why they sought and got permission for the Dialog Mass.
Sorry to be so direct and forceful, but this is no time to slide backwards into the trashbucket of the OLD 4-hymn sandwich, leaving the NEW 4-hymn sandwich behind.
Was not *generally* permitted. Was permitted by specific indult in some locations, and those permissions were being gradually being extended in the years before Vatican II.
So answer my other question then, what about Sunday Low Mass? Get rid of it? Or just say no music altogether?
My pastor has put an insert in the service bulletin this summer asking people to start preparing for the latin mass by learning the Confiteor in latin by heart. He says nothing marks you as a Catholic quite like knowing the Confiteor in Latin.
How about A Mighty Fortress Is Our God? ;)
Low Mass was an exception to the rules.
High Mass is the norm.
And: if you must have a Low Mass, then use the “dialog Mass” format.
Can you document the indults for singing vernacular hymnody?
Must have been a long time ago the exception was made. Do you know when? Or if it was uniform over all countries?
Seems to me a daily high Mass would have been an awful inconvenience for people who had to get to work or school -- even low Mass today with a long homily can leave you cutting it close!
I have acknowledgement of the “low Mass” from (IIRC) Pius XII in one of his documents on liturgical music.
Wouldn’t be surprised to know that it goes back a lot further. The speculation I’ve read is that the LM was ‘invented’ to accomodate priests offering their Mass in monestaries; lotsa priests, few choir members.
But what we’re discussing today is not “lotsa priests.” We’re now talking about (at most) ONE Mass on a Sunday, with plenty of time available.
No war-time problems here, no persecutions by Her Majesty’s troops, (and even THEN they sang their Masses—Byrd wrote them for only a few voices b/c that’s all you could stuff into the ‘priest-holes.’)
So what’s the Pressing Need for Speed?
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