Don't you have better things to do with your life than to dig up old articles that rag on dispensationalists every day?
Just curious.
Posted on 08/09/2007 7:47:51 AM PDT by topcat54
I was making my semi-annual trip through the local Christian bookstore (actually, a trinket store) when I saw the third reincarnation of John F. Walvoord's best-seller Armageddon, Oil and the Middle East. Originally published back in 1974 by Zondervan, the book was re-issued with a snazzy new cover after Operation Desert Storm in 1990.
Lo and behold, here it was again on the shelves of a Christian bookstore! This time published by Tyndale with an update (apparently) by Mark Hitchcock. I refused to buy it (since I've already purchased the two prior incarnations), so I can't tell you what has been updated. But the title says it all. Now that Saddam Hussein is pushing up daisies somewhere near Tikrit, the focus switches from a Soviet-Arab invasion of Israel and a revived Babylonian empire, to a more general Muslim threat to Israel and the new foil of dispensational end-times theorizing--Islamic terrorism.
Dr. Walvoord, who died in 2002 and now a member of the church triumphant, obviously, was not able to contribute to the new edition.
The shamelessness with which books like this can be corrected, updated and then republished with new covers and a new chapter or two, only to sell a gazillion more copies, is simply breathtaking. Doesn't it trouble people that the 1974 edition and the 1990 edition got many things wrong? I thought if we interpreted the Bible "literally" all the mysteries regarding the end-times would be cleared up.
The Soviet Union no longer exists . . . Saddam Hussein is dead . . . Militant Islam is the new menace from the east (displacing Communism and a revived Babylonian empire). Barring the return of our blessed Savior, I suspect another edition, with another new cover, is a mere ten years away. I can only imagine how the cover art and title will be tweaked this time.
As one who has written two books on eschatology, let me just say, if you see a new edition of A Case for Amillennialism or Man of Sin, in which my exegesis is "updated and corrected" to explain an as yet unforeseen world event that I failed to predict, don't buy it. It means I didn't know what I was talking about!
That being said, I am now hard at work on an expanded eschatology text which will deal with a broader range of eschatological issues, including preterism and postmillennialism. We do need a Reformed/covenantal/amillennial equivalent of the venerable J. Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come. Lord willing, this will come to fruition . . .
Imminence is a moment by moment thing. It’s like “you had better be ready ‘cause you don’t know when the master of the house is coming home”. All eschatologist get paid to read signs of the time. Some get paid for “now”, some get paid for “not now”. The “nows” make money off the “not nows” and the “not nows” make money off the “nows”. Gauranteed, if we were transformed according to our eschatological theories, all would be pre-trib.
Then why do the date-setting "Jesus is absolutely gonna return to this generation” crowd make it seem that “imminence” is the sole domain of futurist, literalist dispensationalists? And unless you believe with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength that Jesus is gonna return before you finish your cup of coffee you really do not understand imminence?
People who make a profession out of reading the signs of the times often go by another title, "false prophets".
“And the advantage of the dispensational view is that you probably be dead before you can be proven wrong”
That’s impossible by definition. If one dies before they believe the tribulation starts, they win. It’s kind of like a “serial rapture”. If the tribulation occured around 70 A.D., they win since they didn’t go through it just as they believed they would not.
“People who make a profession out of reading the signs of the times often go by another title, “false prophets”.
Let’s see which camp I want to be in.
2 Peter 3:3-4, “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”
or
2 Peter 3:8-14, “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.”
I think I will choose the “And unless you believe with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength that Jesus is gonna return before you finish your cup of coffee” camp and count the delay as His long suffering mercy.
FWIW, imho, on this subject, trying to dialog seriously with topcat about the Bible is exactly the same as trying to talk with Campion about the Gospel.
IOW, I don’t.
I don’t see anything about date-setting or futurist speculation in those verses, or that somehow the “last days” is limited to early part of the 21st century.
In fact the NT understanding of the phrase is quite different from that of the dispensationalist:
“But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, ...” (Acts 2:16,17)
“Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.” (1 John 2:18)
Well, that’s silly. Obviously, we all "win" in the end, but some of us will still be wrong when the roll is called up yonder. E.g., since the “great tribulation” described the events in AD70, the pretribbers are, by definition, wrong on this one point of their eschatology, since Christ’s return for His church is post-tribulational.
But if you are “in Christ” you still win in the end along with the rest of us who are right.
I hope I haven’t hurt your feelings by refusing to dialog about the Bible.
Oh, I forgot, I wasn’t asked.
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." (Rom. 2:28,29)
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:26-29)
“I don’t see anything about date-setting or futurist speculation in those verses”
Perhaps you missed these phrases”
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night”
“Looking for and hasting unto”
“look for new heavens and a new earth”
“seeing that ye look for such things”
The whole “thief in the night” should arouse in one the idea that if I don’t take precautions now, he/she (don’t want to appear too sexist)may come tonight. That is dat/time setting.
The other three phrases “look[ing] for” all carry with them the idea of expectancy. Now if you don’t have an imminent expectancy i.e. proposed time/date, you are not “looking for” or anticipating but just going with the flow. The whole idea of “what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness” presumes an expectancy that it is now, not not now.
No, actually I didn't miss anything.
What I didn’t see is anything in the passage that would lead me to believe that eschatological speculation about current events in the Middle East is anywhere authorized in the Word of God.
On the contrary, we are told that Christ will come as a “thief in the night” and that men will be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. IOW, it will be impossible to tell the nearness of Christ’s return by investigating “signs”.
All of God’s people are to live as if He might return at any moment, from the saints of 2000 years ago to the saints 2000 years from now.
We won’t be able to figure out the nearness by paying unnecessary attention to some petty dictator in the Middle East. They are a dime a dozen and come and go according to God’s providential will.
Don't you have better things to do with your life than to dig up old articles that rag on dispensationalists every day?
Just curious.
Hello? Stop spamming me with pings, please. I’m not interested in anything you write on this subject.
For sure.
Though I still think that WHEN we are very close, we will be able to discern the year/season but not the date.
Though I still think that WHEN we are very close, we will be able to discern the year/season but not the date.
Is there any biblical warrant for thinking that?
First of all, most articles I post are not old.
Secondly, I do have much better things to do, but nothing else of interest gets the kind of visceral reaction that we experience here on FR from the dispie crowd. After all, it managed to get your attention, and you even took time off from posting about the predestination and American Idol to stop by here. You even took the time to post a cutesy sign. I must be touching a raw nerve to get such reaction.
But at least you are not a “drive by” commentator who refuses to engage in coversation.
Christ’s chiding the Pharisees . . .
who could discern the weather but not the prophetic times and seasons.
Read that passage again from the modern prophetic perspective . . . with all of Matt 24.
There’s nothing in Scripture to indicate we will not know the season, year—just that we won’t know the date.
There’s several verses indicating we can and should be alert, watching, aware of the prophetic “season.”
I’ve never observed you to be genuinely interested in healthy give and take conversation on the topic.
I’ve only observed you to be interested in lock-step indoctrination and conformity to your perspective.
They're undoubtedly looking for for more double buyers.
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