Posted on 09/09/2007 5:07:34 PM PDT by DouglasKC
You don't believe Paul had authority from Christ to allow uncircumcised gentiles to take the Lord's supper?
We do not ignore them. We see them as fulfilled perfectly and obediently in Christ. When we celebrate Christ’s work we celebrate all to which the Mosaic feasts pointed.
That's nice. Not scriptural, but a nice way to feel good about not obeying the Lord.
You seem to be missing the purely spiritual nature of 1 Cor. 5:7,8. First of all, it says that Christ is our Passover. He is the one to Whom the Mosaic Passover pointed. The Mosaic Passover was the shadow and Christ is the substance.
Exactly.
Second, it tells us how to keep this “feast” (i.e., Christ our Passover), with the “unleavened bread of sincerity and truth”. Paul is not speaking at all about the old ceremonies with animal sacrifices and physically unleavened bread.
Exactly, except that physical lessons reinforce spiritual lessons. For example, honoring the Lord by observing his Passover reminds us every year of the sacrifice of Christ. Celebrating the days of unleavened bread by avoiding leavening teaches and reminds us to seek out and remove sin from our lives so we can have the "unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."
He is speaking spiritually of how we are to approach the throne of Christ. He is our Passover. We do not need to keep the “passover” of men.
Not of men. But by recognizing that the Lord still has a purpose for his holy days it teaches us, it makes us his disciples.
Peter NEVER ate animal flesh that scripture defined as unclean.
That’s exactly what Paul said he did. You can disagree with Paul if you wish, but his words could not be plainer. Why don’t you deal with the actual text and explain it to us.
Paul never said that Peter ate the flesh of animals designated unclean by the Lord. Paul didn't even say that the gentiles were sitting around eating pork chops. All of this is just your supposition based upon projection of your beliefs back to biblical times. Pharasetical jews had established an onerous system of rules and regulations for dealing with gentiles. Nearly all were non-scriptural. To believe this requires that all you do a little bit of study about Judaism and especially of that period.
What amazes me is how some are quick to point out that understanding Elohim'sshalom b'shem Yah'shua
Holy Word and recognizing and observing His commanded Feast days is soundly condemned
by those that have embraced all the non-scriptual Pagan feasts days like Easter and
Christmas.Absolutely no understanding that Yah'shua celebrated Pesach, HagMatzoh,
First Fruits and Shavuot a second time with an enhanced meaning.Leaving the Feast of Trumpets, Yom Kippur and Sukkoth to be left for future celebration by Yah'shua.
No understanding of the Feast Shemini Atzeret and its future meaning.
Colossians 2:16 Shows Gentile Christians Kept the Holy Days
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come ..." wrote the apostle Paul in Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV). This passage is often misinterpreted. What does it really say?
Paul was combating a local heresy. False teachers had introduced their own religious philosophy, which was a blend of Jewish and gentile concepts. Their distorted ideas were founded on human "tradition" and "principles of the world," not on the Word of God. Paul warned the Colossians to "beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ" (verse 8).
These false teachers introduced their own rules and regulations for their idea of proper conduct (verses 20-22). The content of Paul's warning to the Colossian church strongly indicates that these heretics were the forerunners of a major heresy that developed into gnosticism, which is a belief system that holds that secret knowledge (gnosis is Greek for "knowledge," hence the term gnosticism) can enhance one's religion. Gnostics claimed to be so spiritual that they disdained virtually everything physical, regarding it as beneath them.
The false teachers in Colossae rejected the physical—the perishable things that could be touched, tasted or handled (verses 21-22)—particularly when it related to worship. Their philosophy encouraged neglect of the physical needs of the body to attain heightened spirituality. In reality, however, their self-imposed religion did nothing of the sort and accomplished nothing in combating human nature. As Paul wrote, it was of "no value against the indulgence of the flesh" (verse 23).
The Christians in Colossae obeyed God. They kept His Sabbath and Holy Days, and they rejoiced on them, following biblical instruction (Deuteronomy 16:10-11, 13-14).
The heretics condemned the Colossian church for the manner in which the Colossians observed the Holy Days. Notice that they didn't challenge the days themselves. It was the physical enjoyment of them—rejoicing and feasting—that provoked the objections of these false teachers.
Notice Paul's words again: "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding [Greek meros, meaning 'part,' or 'regarding any portion of'] a festival or a new moon or sabbath" (Colossians 2:16).
Paul was telling the Colossians to ignore these heretics' judgments and criticisms about their enjoyment of the eating and drinking aspects of God's festivals.
Rather than showing disregard for the days God established as holy, Paul's comments in this passage confirm that the Colossian Christians—who were primarily gentiles (Colossians 2:13)—were observing the weekly Sabbath and Holy Days of God more than 30 years after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection.
Had they not been observing these days, the heretics would have had no basis for their objections to the eating and drinking aspects—the feasting portion—of the Sabbath and the Holy Days.
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Why? Because it agrees with your views?
There is no evidence anywhere in the NT that gentile believers kept the Mosaic feast days of Israel. Nada zero zilch.
When the directives where given to the gentile believers from the broader church in Acts 15, the idea of keeping Mosaic feast days is nowhere to be found.
Paul had may opportunities in his letters to enjoin such behavior on the gentiles, but he never does . He had a perfect opportunity, for example, in 1 Cor. 11 when discussing the matter of the Lord’s Suppert (not “passover”), and he never mentioned feast-keeping. It’s hard to believe that the same gentiles who could not rightly keep the very simple Lord’s Supper managed to get all the detailed feast days of Moses perfectly right without the need for a word from Paul.
No, my friend, you thesis and the thesis of this paper does not stand up to the intense scrutiny of the Word of God. It is built on speculation and an innate distrust, even hatred, for the teachings of the Church for the last 2000 years. It is revisionism at its finest.
I agree. The blindness of the Easter- and Christmas-keeper is matched only by the blindness of those who, during this new covenant era, try to live “under the law” as given to Moses for the people in the land.
1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 3)11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! (Gal. 5)
There's all kinds. You just can't see it because to admit it would mean that you have to reject the philosophy upon which you've created religious views.
In Jesus time:
Joh 12:20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
Joh 12:21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
There was no clear defining day when Christians began to forego observing the feasts of the Lord. But there were events that sped up the process, namely anti-semitism and the later prominence of the Roman church.
We know from history that as late as 365 AD council of The Council of Laodicea had to tell gentile Christians not to observe one of the Lord's feasts, the weekly sabbath:
#29: Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. (Percival Translation [8]).
Paul had may opportunities in his letters to enjoin such behavior on the gentiles, but he never does . He had a perfect opportunity, for example, in 1 Cor. 11 when discussing the matter of the Lord’s Suppert (not “passover”), and he never mentioned feast-keeping. It’s hard to believe that the same gentiles who could not rightly keep the very simple Lord’s Supper managed to get all the detailed feast days of Moses perfectly right without the need for a word from Paul.
Sure they did because that was the normal custom for Christians. That's what they were taught from scripture, the "old testament".
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honorable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Act 15:21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
All the feasts pointed to Christ. We agree on that. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether we need to keep on keeping all these decayed, faded, shadowy Mosaic feasts now that the Substance, Jesus Christ, has appeared and revealed Himself as the King of Israel and the Lord of the Nations.
The NT answer is “no”. The apostles and elders never enjoined such behavior on anyone as a sign of proper religious conduct.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” (Gal. 5:22,23)
Nothing about law-keeping or observing feast days in there at all.
Do you live in the past unde the old covenant with the unbelieving rabbis? Or do you want to live with the new holy nation and royal priesthood as we celebrate and worship our Lord in Spirit and Truth in the simplicity of the gospel?
That is a misunderstanding on your part.Messianiacs do not try to live under the Law.
shalom b'shem Yah'shua
How is it that those who observe Christmas and Easter do so? There's not ONE hint in the bible to do so. Not even in the old testament.
Tradition and culture is how.
In the case of early Christians there was tradition, culture AND scripture. That's where they learned to observe them. Paul didn't have to instruct them. They grew up with it.
Who instructs people to observe Christmas? Where is the training? Where are the people forcing them to do it?
I realize how you want to read the verses, but it simply says there were “certain Greeks among those who came up to worship at the feast.” It does not say these Greeks were worshipping at the feast, which is you’re reading. (Which would have been inappropriate for uncircumcised Greeks to observe.)
It may simply mean that Greeks traveled with Jews who were coming to worship, and these Greeks sought out Jesus. You are hard pressed to find evidence of Greeks (unless they are proselytes to Judaism) observing these Mosaic codes. Even the proselytes were not permitted to observe certain feast, such as Passover. Besides, it’s not even clear these Greeks were believers in Jesus at this time. They may have just been curious. Note what is written earlier, “Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness. For this reason the people also met Him, because they heard that He had done this sign”
You can not build a very strong case on pure speculation, esp. when all the evidence is against you.
lol. You are certainly stubborn. That's about as clear as it gets. Read commentators. Read history. Read other translations:
(ESV) Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
(MRC) Now there were certain Greeks out of those who were going up to worship at the festival;
(MSG) There were some Greeks in town who had come up to worship at the Feast.
(WNT) Now some of those who used to come up to worship at the Festival were Greeks.
(ALT) Now [there] were some Greeks from the ones going up so that they should prostrate themselves in worship at the feast.
(EMTV) And there were some Greeks among those coming up, so that they might worship at the feast.
(ESV) Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
There WERE gentiles who recognized that the Jews worshipped the one, true, God. These gentiles recognized that he wanted people to worship him in the way he specified. Scripture is full of examples of gentiles who recognized this. Nebuchadnezzer comes to mind. It's like you think that Peter, Paul and the rest totally scrapped everything they ever knew, including scripture and the example of Christ, and invented their own rules.
Thank you DouglasKC. I will very happily read all that you send via the new ping list. And thank you for your very patient and scholarly defense of the Sabbatarian/Messianic point of view.
XS>What amazes me is how some are quick to point out that understanding Elohim's Holy Word and recognizing and observing His commanded Feast days is soundly condemned by those that have embraced all the non-scriptural Pagan feasts days like Easter and Christmas.
I agree. The blindness of the Easter- and Christmas-keeper is matched only by the blindness of those who, during this new covenant era, try to live “under the law” as given to Moses for the people in the land.
46 posted on 09/11/2007 2:20:50 PM MDT by topcat54
Where do you read in Elohim's Holy Word the Pagan practice of using only "Sunday" for worship. Elohim created the seventh day of rest metaphor in Genesis. It continues today as we are entering the Seventh Millennium, the thousand years of rest in Yah'shua. Now that you agree that Easter and Christmas are Pagan practices
shalom b'shem Yah'shua
introduced starting in the Second Century.
The Pagan Emperor banned all true worship of Elohim in the fourth century.
I don't think it has anything to do with being stubborn. Most of the folks on this forum know scripture well enough to even know when they are wrong. The problem is.....they cannot admit this, as then.... their Catholic/Protestant, false foundation will come crumbling down......as it should, I might add.
The answer I can never seem to get from any of them is: Why do some of the Early Church Fathers (Polycarp, Polycrates and others) continue to celebrate the Passover, on the fourteenth as directed by Leviticus 23....late in the second century? From the Link: "Our author belonged to a family in which he was the eighth Christian bishop; and he presided over the church of Ephesus, in which the traditions of St. John were yet fresh in men's minds at the date of his birth."
John....the last living Apostle and the one to whom was given the care of The Lord's mother. Didn't he get the memo?
Assuming your interpretation is correct, so what?
These Greek were, just like the Jews, worshipping under the requirements of the old covenant Mosaic code which was still in effect at that particular time. Likewise with folks from Moses through David to John the Baptist (Nebuchadnezzer is a red-herring since he never worshipped at the temple).
All that changed when Christ appeared and instituted the new covenant. In the new covenant we no longer see believing Greeks going up with Jews to the temple to worship (The example of Timothy in Acts 16 is a unique situation, and Paul makes it clear his reasons for all the actions in that special case.). In fact, after the resurrection even Jesus never again appeared at the temple even though He was on the earth for another 40 days. The power of God ripped the temple veil in two, symbolizing the end of the system of temple worship was at hand. Besides, the temple was not a fit place for Christian worship anyway since Greeks were not permitted (Acts 21:29).
So there is a clear old covenant/new covenant delineation in the Bible. Over the course of 40 years, from the resurrection to the destruction of the temple in AD70, the people of God transitioned from old covenant worship to new covenant worship. For a time there was a bit of overlap. The Jewish believer kept some of their forms as a custom and in order to win their fellow Jews to Christ.
Many of the things that folks did routinely under the old covenant were not followed under the new, especially once the temple was finally and forever destroyed by God by the agency of the armies of Rome.
I think you have a hard time seeing this, and instead prefer to read all sorts on things into the Bible which are not there.
That view has not changed.
The Pagan Emperor banned all true worship of Elohim in the fourth century.
Poppycock. Your spouting historical revisionism from modern day restorationists. Anyone attempting to worship by old covenant means was already condemned.
Where do you read in Elohim's Holy Word the Pagan practice of using only "Sunday" for worship.
Old stuff. Already answered. The seventh-day types have been riding this hobby-horse for too long.
It continues today as we are entering the Seventh Millennium, the thousand years of rest in Yah'shua.
Specuation.
Where's the beef?
Not Yah'shua !By whom ?
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. (Gal. 4)Those who follow worship practices there were inseparably linked to temple worship fall into this category of following after earthly Jerusalem (Note that even Paul recognized he needed to return to Jerusalem to participate in “the feast” and Pentecost; Acts 18:21; 20:16). Those who follow old covenant worship practices are the children of Hagar by this analogy.
Paul’s entire emphasis in Galatians is that members of Christ’s body, the true sons of Abraham, not put themselves into the position of denying the Lord by the chasing after the things of the Law. Those who wish to merely keep the convenient aspect of the law are under a curse. As Paul says, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them" (Gal. 3:10). Unless you can observe the "jots and tittles" then you are under a curse.
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