Skip to comments.CONFESSION & FORGIVENESS Toward Christian Health and Relationships [Charismatic Caucus]
Posted on 09/23/2007 3:31:18 PM PDT by Quix
A few Scriptures and some Quix commentary . . .
Keeping in mind . . .
THOSE WHO BELIEVE . . . cast out demons . . . speak with other tongues . . . etc.
AND . . . by reasonable extrapolation:
John 20:22-23 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
22-23Then he took a deep breath and breathed into them. "Receive the Holy Spirit," he said. "If you forgive someone's sins, they're gone for good. If you don't forgive sins, what are you going to do with them?"
KJV: 2 Corinthians 2:9-11 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
9For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
AMPLIFIED: 2ND COR 2:
10If you forgive anyone anything, I too forgive that one; and what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sakes in the presence [and with the approval] of Christ (the Messiah),
11To keep Satan from getting the advantage over us; for we are not ignorant of his wiles and intentions.
Perhaps there will be enough herein to offend everyone, though thats the opposite of my goal. I do know from experience, that those so easily offended . . . particularly primarily by Scripture . . . are most likely losing out on treasures and potential treasures to them.
Those who are more inclined to take such to God in prayer and ask His Spirit to show them what (if anything) HE would have them learn from such pontificationsthose Believers tend to grow more rapidly, deeply and broadly IN CHRIST, in my experience.
I do not believe that most Christians understand forgiveness remotely sufficiently to really please God in the matter.
AMPLIFIED: JOHN 20:
22And having said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit!
23[Now having received the Holy Spirit, and being [a]led and directed by Him] if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.
NEW LIVING TRANSLATION:
22 Then he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyones sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.
CONTEMPORARY ENGLISH VERSION:
22Then he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone's sins, they will be forgiven. But if you don't forgive their sins, they will not be forgiven."
YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION
22and this having said, he breathed on [them], and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit;
23if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained.'
NEW LIFE VERSION:
22 When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you say that people are free of sins, they are free of them. If you say that people are not free of sins, they still have them."
22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Matthew 6:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 6 (Whole Chapter) Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Colossians 1:13-15 The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson
13-14God rescued us from dead-end alleys and dark dungeons. He's set us up in the kingdom of the Son he loves so much, the Son who got us out of the pit we were in, got rid of the sins we were doomed to keep repeating.
NIV COL 1:13-15
13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,[a] the forgiveness of sins.
THE MESSAGE; LUKE 7:
43-47Simon answered, "I suppose the one who was forgiven the most."
"That's right," said Jesus. Then turning to the woman, but speaking to Simon, he said, "Do you see this woman? I came to your home; you provided no water for my feet, but she rained tears on my feet and dried them with her hair. You gave me no greeting, but from the time I arrived she hasn't quit kissing my feet. You provided nothing for freshening up, but she has soothed my feet with perfume. Impressive, isn't it? She was forgiven many, many sins, and so she is very, very grateful. If the forgiveness is minimal, the gratitude is minimal."
48Then he spoke to her: "I forgive your sins."
THE MESSAGE: MAT 18:
32-35"The king summoned the man and said, 'You evil servant! I forgave your entire debt when you begged me for mercy. Shouldn't you be compelled to be merciful to your fellow servant who asked for mercy?' The king was furious and put the screws to the man until he paid back his entire debt. And that's exactly what my Father in heaven is going to do to each one of you who doesn't forgive unconditionally anyone who asks for mercy."
AMPLIFIED: MAT 18:
18Truly I tell you, whatever you forbid and declare to be improper and unlawful on earth must be [a]what is already forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit and declare proper and lawful on earth must be [b]what is already permitted in heaven.
19Again I tell you, if two of you on earth agree (harmonize together, make a symphony together) about whatever [anything and [c]everything] they may ask, it will come to pass and be done for them by My Father in heaven.
AMPLIFIED: MAT 16: 18And I tell you, you are [a]Peter [Greek, Petros--a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra--a [b]huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the [c]infernal region) shall [d]not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it].
19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth [e]must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth [f]must be what is already loosed in heaven.(A)
I JOHN 1:
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
KJV: EPH 4:31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you
Nothing hereing is intended nor designed to be an attack on any group or individual. All of us are in essentially the same boat in need of such, imho.
Some of us are more used to applying these Scriptures in literal functional ways than others. But I suspect all of us could do better regarding them.
I invite edifying growthful comments by one and all.
END TIMES PING LIST PING
Please let me know if you want on or off the list.
Bless you as you prayerfully ponder these issues.
Please contribute your spiritual and other insights on the issues in the spirit of a Charismatic Caucus.
Thanks for posting this! Forgiving and receiving forgiveness is a tremendous conduit of God’s grace to us.
I recall that it is in this context, of forgiving others, that Jesus said, “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.”
Very nice, Q!
“Forgiveness is better than revenge” +Tikhon
What about other Charismatics?
You say “Quix” list.
I disagree with that moniker.
Either one IS a Charismatic or one IS not. Nothing about “Quix” makes one a Cahristmatic.
Perhaps the misunderstanding arose from my trying to shorten the title sufficiently to post. I originally had ‘Quix Commentary” there and took Commentary out last.
I think everyone knows I just keep the ping list.
Taking Quix out of the title would be much better, clearer, if and when convenient.
Nothing about Quix makes one a Cahristmatic
= = = =
Perhaps being sufficiently annoyed by Quix could conceivably drive someone to seeking God so much that Holy Spirit overflowed from them in urgent petitional tongues!
I think that was supposed to be “Quix’s Charismatic Caucus.” I’m quite slow, myself, but still Charismatic, in the religious if not the common sense :-).
That reminds me of an occasion after I became involved in the Charismatic Renewal, but before I received the gift of tongues. My family was at Mass - four children then, I think, and the 5th on the way - and our youngest started to get noisy. My husband took her out to the lobby. Then the next youngest started to act up, but I couldn't take him out and leave the other two (about 8 and 5) by themselves.
People all over the congregation were staring, and I put both my hands on Tom's head and started muttering, "God, strike him unconscious. God, get me out of this. God, an earthquake now would be really nice!" Nothing happened, though, except the service *finally* ended!
I do not believe that most Christians understand forgiveness remotely sufficiently to really please God in the matter.
1. Perhaps its lack of Scriptural awareness.
2. Perhaps its a lack of prayerfulness about such Scriptures.
3. Perhaps its a matter of pride, ego, vain glory.
4. Perhaps its a matter of bad teaching.
5. Perhaps its a matter of denominational boundaries and blindness there-from.
6. Perhaps its a matter of stubbornness, rebellion, idolatry at anything less than God.
I will add
7. Perhaps there are strongholds stopping some from forgiving.
God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
If God isn’t looking to condemn, who am I to withhold forgiveness? Personally, I strive to pray this often:
“In Jesus’ Name I forgive all those who have sinned against me in any way.”
Well I’ll tell you what Quix. With forgiveness should come grace...Otherwise how can one call it forgiveness? For many years I have been the victim of a so called form of forgiveness that does not include grace. Believe me that Christians can find reasons to justify being graceless to the spirit of another. And the damage from that can be enough to destroy the spirit of another. Especially if the punishment is harsh enough.
There is an angle that is often missed in all of this forgiveness stuff. And that is fear. What if you fear that the other person is going to hurt you if you give them grace? Well the modern church teaches that is justification to withhold grace. Or they teach that Grace is not an action. That is because it has become worldly and does not teach God’s love and grace as we should extend it to others.
Consider this scripture though:
“There is no fear in love because fear has to do with punishment, and perfect love drives out fear.” 1st John 4:18
The whole premise of that scripture is not taught today.
I did find this recently though. It seems that David Wilkerson gets it.
A really good story that I once found:
Am very blessed and touched by your kind post.
Do you have a profound example of forgiveness acted out—from your spiritual heritage and/or personal experiences—that could be instructive for us ‘Charismaniacs?’
My imagination painted a vivid pic of that scene.
Excellent points. Thanks.
**Perhaps being sufficiently annoyed by Quix could conceivably drive someone to seeking God so much that Holy Spirit overflowed from them in urgent petitional tongues!**
No, that didn’t happen. What I thought was that even in the Charismatic definiting in the topics, I don’t see “Quix.” I just laughed and thought it needed to be addressed.
For your information on the Charismatic topic list:
**Assemblies of God, pentacostalism, charismatic movement etc**
That includes Catholics who have taken part in a charismatic movement, too.
I have one word in answer to all the “perhaps”
Excellent points and links.
Certainly fear is a biggy in our lives . . . and the enemy tries to make it a bigger and bigger thing.
There’s growing evidence that it leads to physical illness as well as spiritual illness.
How many times is it that Scripture includes the phrase in the KJV: “FEAR NOT!”
That’s a command that we seem too often helpless to obey . . . yet—that can’t be true . . . at least God can enable us and mature us to the point where it’s not very true.
An important point and a persistent issue in Pastor Wright’s work with “incurable” diseases and healing therefrom.
I think Rick Joyner has written powerfully about humility and the cloak of humility.
Stating rather strongly that we won’t survive in these end times else we are continually renewed in our cloak of humility as we are about the Father’s business.
Imitation of Christ, 1,1 - Imitating Jesus Christ and Despising All Vanities on Earth [Devotional]
Imitation of Christ: 1,2, Having A Humble Opinion of Self [Devotional]
Imitation of Christ: 1, 7, Avoiding False Hope and Pride [Devotional]
Imitation of Christ: 1, 9, Obedience and Subjection [Devotional]
Imitation of Christ: 1. 14, Avoiding Rash Judgment [Devotional]
Imitation of Christ: 1, 16, Bearing With the Faults of Others [Devotional]
Some of you may know of the great poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko. In 1944 his mother took him from Siberia to Moscow where he saw over 20,000 German pows paraded through the streets. In his autobiography he wrote this of what he saw that day:
“The pavements swarmed with onlookers, cordoned off by soldiers and police. The crowd was mostly women — Russian women with hands roughened by hard work, lips untouched by lipstick, and with thin hunched shoulders which had borne half of the burden of the war. Every one of them must have had a father or a husband, a brother or a son killed by the Germans. They gazed with hatred in the direction from which the column was to appear.
At last we saw it. The generals marched at the head, massive chins stuck out, lips folded disdainfully, their whole demeanor meant to show superiority over their plebian victors.
“’They smell of perfume, the bastards,” someone in the crowd said with hatred. The women were clenching their fists. The soldiers and policemen had all they could do to hold them back.
All at once something happened to them. They saw German soldiers, thin, unshaven, wearing dirty blood-stained bandages, hobbling on crutches or leaning on the shoulders of their comrades; the soldiers walked with their heads down. The street became dead silent — the only sound was the shuffling of boots and the thumping of crutches.
Then I saw an elderly women in broken-down boots push herself forward and touch a policeman’s shoulder, saying, “Let me through.” There must have been something about her that made him step aside. She went up to the column, took from inside her coat something wrapped in a colored handkerchief and unfolded it. It was a crust of black bread. She pushed it awkwardly into the pocket of a soldier, so exhausted that he was tottering on his feet. And now from every side women were running toward the soldiers, pushing into their hands bread, cigarettes, whatever they had. The soldiers were no longer enemies. They were people..”
I think that one is worth posting entirely here—particularly with their permission clearly posted:
by Phyllis Le Peau,
InterVarsity Area Coordinator
The darkest season of my life was a period of time during which I refused to forgive my friend Karen. In my disappointment over a decision she had made, I chose to remain angry and allowed myself to become bitter. I knew what Scripture taught about reconciliation. I knew what I should do. I chose not to obey. I simply would not run the risk of being hurt again. In the whole process, supposedly protecting myself, I was hurting myself much more, along with many others.
There is much in God’s Word concerning reconciliation — thoughts and principles that I chose to ignore. The fact that God has forgiven me is the basis, the very foundation of my forgiving another. We see in Colossians 1:19-22 that God has reconciled all things to himself through Jesus’ death on the cross. We were his enemies and he made us his friends! He took the initiative. He paid the price.
It was only when I realized how dreadful my sin was that I was broken to the point of forgiving Karen. This led me to experience the grace of God in a deep way—not just to give intellectual assent to the fact that I need Jesus to save me. As I meditated on the cross and Jesus’ gruesome death there for my sin, my pride, my hatred, my jealousy, my uncontrolled tongue, my bad thoughts and my selfish attitudes, I was finally, freely able to forgive.
Because it took me years to come to this point of brokenness and obedience in my relationship with my friend, there was great damage in the relationship to be dealt with—damage that could have been avoided had I simply obeyed God.
A life of forgiveness and freedom from bitterness is the only way to live. But I am certainly not suggesting that living this way is magical or even easy. Obedience to God is rarely easy. It often rubs against the grain of our sinful nature. Situations in which forgiveness is difficult often raise questions in our minds, especially when the cost of obedience seems high. Here are a number of “Frequently Asked Questions” (FAQs) about forgiveness.
1. What if I just don’t feel like forgiving? This still happens to me all the time. My husband, Andy, and I received a bit of premarital counseling advice that I remember well: never withhold forgiveness from one another. That certainly hit a tender nerve because of what had happened with Karen.
Andy and I promised each other that we would always forgive. When I don’t feel like forgiving Andy, I try to ask myself, Why not? Is this a power play? Am I gaining certain satisfaction from holding something over his head? Am I making him pay for what he has done? Am I afraid of being hurt again? Do I feel a sense of pride or superiority, a feeling that I would never do anything like what he did?
Often, just being able to put my finger on the reason for a feeling helps to lessen its control over me. But regardless of the reason—or whether or not I know what the reason is—my life does not need to be controlled by feelings. Love is much more than an emotion. I would suspect that in his agony on the cross, Jesus did not feel like forgiving. Obedience is an act of the will. When I obey the command to forgive, to relate to that person as if the offense had not occurred, often the feelings follow.
Praying for a person who has hurt me has also been vital in the restoration process. The biblical character Job is one example of this. Tragedy had befallen him, and his friends accused him of sin in their desperate search for an explanation. He prayed for his friends, even as they accused him. When we pray for the one we don’t want to forgive, it’s not a casual prayer request, but rather laboring before God for that individual. It’s difficult for bitterness to grow in our heart if we are genuinely praying for that person.
2. What happens when I forgive or am forgiven? There are several things that take place when we forgive someone. Most important of all, we are obeying God and pleasing him. We are also humbled: I am giving up a form of control over that person when I release them from my bonds of bitterness. (Here itimportant to understand that it’s especially difficult to forgive if the person isn’t asking for it.) Finally, granting forgiveness heals and builds trust. It even affects other relationships. My heart is softened and I am more willing to be vulnerable with others. I still feel the effects of being forgiven by my sister years ago. I was very jealous of her dating relationships; she was two years younger and attracting the young man I wanted to date! She met my anger and cruel treatment with unsolicited forgiveness and graciousness.
3. What if the other person won’t forgive me? In thinking through the process of forgiveness, there are two potential problems: my not forgiving another and someone’s not forgiving me. Perhaps the second is the most painful to me, because I feel so totally out of control when this happens. It’s humbling to go to someone and ask to be forgiven, and it’s very painful if they will not forgive. When I have done all in my power to get things right with that person and she doesn’t forgive, it is time again to pray without ceasing. My prayer in this kind of situation is, “Please grant healing. Give her the strength to obey you.” I also ask God to keep my heart from bitterness and to help me respond as Jesus would. He was falsely accused before many but didn’t open his mouth in prideful self-defense.
4. How do I pick up the pieces when forgiveness is granted? The old saying, “To forgive is to forget,” is not necessarily true in real life. The period of time right after forgiveness is granted could be called “fallout.” For a while, the memories of the pain remain, even though forgiveness has been granted. Ultimately the situations are forgotten, but since that doesn’t happen immediately, we should avoid measuring our forgiveness by loss of memory. Forgiving involves making a choice about what we do with what we remember. Don’t dwell on the incident, and choose never to use it against that person. Relate to that person as if he or she had never sinned against you.
5. How do I keep relationships from getting so bad that it’s very difficult to forgive? Talk, talk, talk. Listen, listen, listen. So much of our hurt and resentment is due to lack of communication. The command in Scripture not to let the sun go down on our anger is both wise and practical. Resolving small problems is much easier than when they are allowed to grow into big problems.
Maybe an issue seems small, or you know it’s just you who are irritated. Often you’ll find you just can’t talk yourself through it—it’s still a problem. You still need to talk in order to resolve it. Talking honestly about your feelings and listening attentively to the other brings increased understanding and almost always resolution.
Feelings that are not discussed but rather repressed will continue to push their ugly heads up at any given opportunity. This is especially true when circumstances similar to the original hurt occur. Again it is the practicality and wisdom of Scripture that sets the pace for us: in Matthew 18:15, Jesus tells us to go to the other person if the sin is against us, and in Matthew 5:23—24 to go to the other person if we sin against him or her. So in both cases, going to settle with our brother or sister is our responsibility. We cannot wait until he or she comes to us. There is too much at stake.
6. What’s the best way to seek someone’s forgiveness? First, surround your effort with prayer. Second, whenever possible, ask in person. Third, don’t “apologize,” which actually means to defend what you did. Instead, say, “Will you forgive me?” That’s far more effective than just, “I’m sorry.” It gives the other person the opportunity to respond with, “Yes, I forgive you,” in order to clear the record.
A final point is that we must be able to forgive ourselves. Satan is our accuser. One of his greatest tools is guilt. He accuses us constantly. He will even stoop to creating false guilt, guilt over offenses already forgiven by God, to keep us oppressed and defeated. The liberating message of the gospel of Jesus Christ is, “You are forgiven.” Being free to forgive is the only way to live.
One night, some time after I had forgiven my friend, the phone rang. It was Karen. She was weeping and told me of her mother’s death. She called because she knew I cared and would understand. She and I wept in shared grief, but mine were also tears of joy and gratitude. The call reminded me of the healing and restoration that had taken place in a once shattered and broken relationship. The freedom of forgiveness and reconciliation is truly possible through the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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Haven’t read major portions of them.
I agree he’s powerful on that grace.
Thanks for the links to those threads.
Yes . . . Scripture says something about feeding our enemies.
Though I’m far from a pacifist.
Very inspiring. Thanks.
“Though Im far from a pacifist.”
Those Russian women weren’t either. Its a safe bet, however, that the overwhelming majority of them were Orthodox Christians.
Oh, that made me cry. Beautiful.
Your welcome. We need things that inspire us.
Excellent David Wilkerson tapes.
PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT FEAR.
Here are a couple of more links that deal with forgiveness. These are ones that I can really relate to:
Still listening to the first Wilkerson link.
Very edifying. Very encouraging.
I agree about strongholds. Some of them prevent healing as well, and unforgiveness stands often in the way of a person’s healing, physical or emotional. I believe there are generational curses that are passed down from all our generations and bitterness and unforgiveness can be part of that.
I agree about strongholds. Some of them prevent healing as well, and unforgiveness stands often in the way of a persons healing, physical or emotional. I believe there are generational curses that are passed down from all our generations and bitterness and unforgiveness can be part of that.
= = =
THANKS MARY. I think you are right on all points.
Mary, that’s sad but true. I have been very encouraged by
A MORE EXCELLENT WAY: BE IN HEALTH
BY HENRY WRIGHT
Henry Wright deals with unforgiveness and other sins that cause chinks in our armor where the enemy can get in and harm us and stop us from being healed. In every chapter, he emphasizes GRACE, MERCY, AND LOVE, so it’s not a book full of condemnation but truly a roadmap to repenting of anything that’s coming between the believer and all of God’s provisions and protections.
Some of the verses Henry Wright uses to point us to obedience to God and a resulting healing and health are:
As the bird by wandering as the swallow by flying so the curse causeless shall not come.
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits—
3who forgiveth all thine iniquities, who healeth all thy diseases,
4who redeemeth thy life from destruction, who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies,
5who satisfieth thy mouth with good things, so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
25And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD showed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet. There He made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there He put them to the proof,
26and said, “If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in His sight, and wilt give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am the LORD that healeth thee.”
II Cor 10:6
6and being in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
[The Message, 2 Cor 10.6 =Our tools are ready at hand for clearing the ground of every obstruction and building lives of obedience into maturity.]
37Jesus said unto him, “`Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.’
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it: `Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.’
40On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live,
20that thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him; for He is thy life and the length of thy days, that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
Thanks for the ping list!
Excellent and crucial Scriptures from an excellent and very redemptive book by Pastor Wright:
A MORE EXCELLENT WAY.
I have that book! I found out a few things about the spiritual causes of diabetes, etc. Very interesting. I also believe that when many people get spiritually and emotionally healed, the physical isn’t far behind. That’s been prophesied over me, actually. Thanks for responding.
Maybe off topic, maybe not, parking this link here for future use and for anyone else looking for a different type of Bible study:
The only radio program that regularly assigns ...
“Preparing for Christ’s appearing: repentance, restitution and reconciliation.”
Quix, this thread might could use a BTTT, good ref for you when you are sharing on healing.