Posted on 10/08/2007 7:49:32 AM PDT by colorcountry
My idea is more precise. For example, the Greek Orthodox Church can claim to be charismatic - a Greek word - baptist - a Greek word, episcopalian - a Greek word - presbyterian - another Greek word.....
I almost forgot - and evangelical - another Greek word!
I’m not posting a lot on FR these days, but this one is just begging for a response.
Mormons have called themselves Christians from day 1. So have those not associated with the Church called them.
Let’s start with the Book of Mormon peoples first. Joseph Smith records (1830) that these followers of Christ were calling themselves Christians, as did their enemies, even before Christ came. They knew of Him and His mission, and worshiped Him as God.
Alma 46:
13... he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—
14 For thus were all the true believers of Christ, who belonged to the church of God, called by those who did not belong to the church.
15 And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come.
16 And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.
Further, here is a year by year account that someone has done a lot of research on this topic. I will share it here. Sorry if it's "spamish" , I know it's long, but it addresses this. The references all follow.
If you are Christian, and believe that Jesus Christ is your Savior, then I accept you as a Christian. To those not having faith in Christ, I invite to come unto Christ, take His name upon you. His burden is easy, and His yoke is light.
All the best,
Sevenbak.
____________________________________________________________________________ Saints claim to be Christian only recently?
This claim is absurd. The critics depend on their audience not knowing much about LDS history for this claim. Enemies and members of the Church have long known that Church members consider themselves “Christian” (italics added in all cases):
[edit]
1830s
1830
“They call themselves the church of Christ, and the only church of Christ. All professing Christians who do not adhere to their system, they consider as formalists; ‘having the form of Godliness, but denying the power’”.[3]
1831
“Old Joe . . . and several others . . . admitted [that the new faith] was an improvement in Christianity”.[4]
1832
The Mormonites “say the Millennium is soon to commence and that Christ is to come personally and take up His residence with them. . . . In its general principles this sect entirely coincide with others which have from time to time sprung up in Christendom”. [5]
1833
There is “a civil war between the Mormonites and their brother Christians”. [6]
1834
“Brother Joseph . . . went on to show the brethren how wicked and unchristianlike such conduct [among them] appeared before the eyes of truth and justice”.[7]
1835
“the doctrine promulgated by the ‘latter day Christians’ in the newly discovered Bible”.[8]
1836
“This morning a minister from Conne[c]ticut by the name of John W. Olived called at my house . . . . [He] asked me wherein we differ from other Christian denomination[s]”.[9]
1836
“they have the appearance of being devout Christians. . . . They call themselves ‘Latter-day Saints,’ and profess to be the only true church, to have the only gospel order, consisting of apostles, elders, bishops, etc., etc., which several orders of the Christian hierarchy have been distinctly brought to light in the Book of Mormon”.[10]
1837
“a large society of Christians who style themselves ‘Latter-day Saints’ or Mormons.” (Painesville Republican, vol. 1, no. 31, 15 June 1837).
1838
“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it”.[11]
1839
“This sect took its rise, A. D. 1830, in the county of Ontario, and State of New York. In April of that year, the society was organized as a Christian Church”.[12]
1839
The Mormons “were singing a hymn as other good Christians are wont to do . . . . [One of them offered] a very good Christian prayer . . . . [which petitioned that the Mormons might have] Christian fortitude.” (Peoria Register and North-Western Gazetteer, vol. 3, no. 17, 27 July 1839)
[edit]
1840s
1840
“We want no religion but pure Christianity”.[13]
1840
The citizens of Nauvoo are “a people, professing to be Christians.” (Quincy Whig, vol. 3, no. 13, 25 July 1840).
1840
The Mormons retain “many truths which are held in common by different denominations of Christians.” (The Alton Telegraph, vol. 5, no. 46, 14 November 1840).
1841
“I understood from [the Mormons] as follows, . . . that they did not discard the Bible as used by other Christian sects”.[14]
1842
“the great Christian city of Nauvoo”.[15]
1842
Hyrum Smith is “one of the most pious and devout christians in the world.” (New York Herald (19 February 1842); cited in Veritas, “The Mormon Prophets,” Millennial Star 3 (May 1842): 8.)
1842
Mormons “are Christians in the fullest sense of the term, believing in the Old and New Testaments.” (The New York Herald, vol. 7, no. 419, 16 May 1842).
1842
Mormons are described as – “A Christian sect in Illinois.” (Alton Telegraph and Democratic Review, vol. 7, no. 25, 18 June 1842; emphasis in original).
1842
“All these letters and documents [about the Mormons] disclose a most extraordinary movement in human affairs. What they mean we can hardly tell, but is it not time for some great religious revolution, as radical as Luther’s, to take place in the Christian world?...Unlike all other Christian sects, they adopt at once all the modern improvements of society, in art and literature; and from their singular religious faith give the highest enthusiasm to the movement at large. There is nothing odd, or singular, or absurd about them.” (”Wonderful Progress of Joe Smith, the Modern Mahomet.—Spread of the Mormon Faith, and a New Religious Revolution at Hand,” N.Y. Herald (17 June 1842); emphasis added).[16]
1842
“Mr. Whitney then asked if we acknowledged any to be Christians except those who embraced our doctrines and joined our church.” (Orson Hyde letter, Times and Seasons, vol. 3, no. 18, 15 July 1842, 849).
1842
A Baptist complained that a Church preacher “declined making an honest confession of those peculiarities which separate them as widely from the Baptists, as from every other denomination of the christian church.” [17]
1843
“So far we are agreed with other Christian denominations. They all preach faith and repentance. The gospel requires baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, which is the meaning of the word in the original language—namely, to bury or immerse”.[18]
1843
Joseph Smith, in a public discourse, compared the Mormons to other denominations of Christians. (New York Spectator, vol. 46, no. 46, 23 August 1843).
1844
The Mormons are “calling themselves Christians . . . . Christians, as they claim to be.” (The Warsaw Signal, NS no. 4, no. 121, 6 March 1844).
1844
“The [Saturday] Courier should for the sake of truth and consistency, strike its flag of neutrality in RELIGION, while it wages a war of extermination against the Mormons; the only sect in Christendom, who in this nineteenth century can exhibit the irresistible evidence of martyrdom, in support of its cause”.[19]
[edit]
1850s
1853
Now, we ARE believers in the Bible, and in consequence of our unshaken faith in its precepts, doctrine, and prophecy, may be, attributed “the strangeness of our course,” and the unwarrantable conduct of many towards this people. Come, my brother Presbyterian; come, my brother professors of every persuasion of long standing and popular distinction in the world, who are dubbed with the word “ORTHODOX;” come, we are all good Christians; I find no fault with you—why should you find fault with me?[20]
1854
“Mormonites . . . . call themselves Christians, it is true” (The Daily Globe, vol. 6, no. 261, 5 October 1854).
1859
We, as Christians, are divided and subdivided into many systems varying in doctrinal points. This one says, “I am right;” and that one says, “I am right;” another rises up and varies, more or less, from the doctrines of the Church he has left, and says he is right.[21]
[edit]
1860s
1861
“…who is there that was not startled when he heard that a sect, affecting to be Christian beyond all other sects, which had sprung up in broad day from admidst the civilization of the United States…”[22]
1863
Should you ask why we differ from other Christians...Are all this people, in the Scriptural sense, Christians? They should be. Do they all serve God with an undivided heart? They should. Many of them do, seeking daily to do his will.[23]
1864
The Latter-day Saints differ from their Christian brethren.[24]
1866
Now, we as Christians desire to be saved in the kingdom of God.[25]
1866
President B. Young preached a very interesting and instructive discourse, in which he showed that professing Christians believe all that the Jews believe, which appertains to life and salvation, and have accepted principles in advance of the Jews, including faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; and that the Latter-day Saints receive all believed in by other professing Christians, appertaining to life and salvation, accepting, as a part of their religious faith, principles in advance of them which are taught in the Scriptures. He touched upon the history of the Jewish people, showing the penalties which they had incurred by disobedience to the commandments of God, and pointing to the promises made to the patriarchal fathers concerning them. And deduced that if the condition of professing Christians is to-day better than that of the Jews, for believing more of the revelations of God, so the condition of the Saints is preferable to that of the other inhabitants of Christendom, in accepting all the revelations which the Lord has been pleased to give. [26]
1866
“On one occasion one of the native brethren who had been persecuted, claimed his rights as a Swiss citizen, and the question was brought up in the Swiss Congress, Are the ‘Mormons’ Christians? After some discussion, the conclusion was arrived at that they were, and must accordingly be protected.”[27]
[edit]
1870s
1870
Have you embraced truth, Latter-day Saints? Have you anything different from other Christians?[28]
1871
If you should have visits here from those professing to be Christians, and they intimate a desire to preach to you, by all means invite them to do so. Accord to every reputable person who may visit you, and who may wish to occupy the stands of your meeting houses to preach to you, the privilege of doing so, no matter whether he be a Catholic, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Baptist, Free-will Baptist, Methodist, or whatever he may be; and if he wishes to speak to your children let him do so. Of course you have the power to correct whatever false teachings or impressions, if any, your children may hear or receive. I say to parents, place your children, as far as you [p.196] have an opportunity to do so, in a position or situation to learn everything in the world that is worth learning. You will probably have what is called a Christian Church here; they will not admit that we are Christians, but they cannot think us further from the plan of salvation as revealed from heaven than we know them to be, so we are even on that ground, as far as it goes.[29]
We are preaching to the people far and near; our Elders are traveling through the earth; strangers are coming here, and we are declaring to them that the Gospel of the Son of God is true. Whether they believe or not, it is no matter. That book (the Bible)contains the words of the Almighty…. I know of the bright promises which he gave to his disciples anciently. I live in the possession of them, and glory in them and in the cross of Christ, and in the beauty and holiness that he has revealed for the salvation and exaltation of the children of men. I do wish we would live to them, and may the Lord help us. [30]
1872
We, as Christians, believe in God, in Christ and in his atonement, in repentance and obedience, and in receiving the Spirit.[31]
“we take the liberty to believe the Bible, which our fellow Christians, generally throughout the world, profess to believe in…”[32]
“We are looking for him [i.e. Second coming of Christ]. The Christians of all denominations expect that he will appear in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The Latter-day Saints expect this in common with all other Christians.”[33]
1876
These are only a few reflections, when we take into consideration our Christian religion.[34]
Brother Cannon speaks of Christians. We are Christians professedly, according to our religion.[35]
“How shall we, as Christians, reconcile these words of our Savior with the reception everywhere given by the world to Messrs. Moody and Sankey? They are, professedly, Christian ministers, yet they are largely entertained by the world, extolled by the world, and apparently loved by the world….”[36]
“But Joseph Smith reiterates the Savior’s promises. He has no fear of being proved a false teacher. He professes to be a Christian minister called and sent of God….”[37]
“Immediate revelation was the life of primitive Christianity, and when that ceased to be given to men, Christianity waxed feeble, waned and died. With the restored Gospel came immediate revelation, and Christianity was born again upon the earth.”[38]
[edit]
1880s
1881
We are a Christian community; we believe in God and in Jesus Christ...[39]
[edit]
1890s
1892
“What a singular sort of ‘Christian community’ that must be that will not tolerate an unorthodox Christian society in its midst!”[40]
“The insinuation in this [written attack on the LDS by a Protestant minister in SLC] is to the effect that a ‘Mormon’ is not a Christian, and the ‘Mormon’ religion is not a Christian religion, and further that the Supreme Court of the United States has virtually so decided…. But if a ‘Mormon’ is not a Christian then there are no Christians in America…. A member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is at least as fairly entitled to the appellation of a Christian as a member of the Presbyterian Church”[41]
“[with reverence to Revelation 1. 12] We accept—as all Christians do—that God inspired the words ‘to see the voice.’”[42]
[edit]
1900-1950
1907
If it be true Christianity to accept Jesus Christ in person and his mission as divine; to revere him as the Son of God, the crucified and risen Lord, through whom alone mankind can attain salvation; to accept his teachings as a guide, to adopt as a standard and observe as a law the ethical code he promulgated; to comply with the requirements prescribed by him as essential to membership in his Church, namely, faith, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost,—if this be Christianity, then are we Christians, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a Christian church.[43]
[edit]
After 1950
1956
We are not Catholic, Protestant, nor Jewish, and yet this disclaimer should not be taken to mean we are not Christian. You who heard the powerful address of President Clark this morning will know that we are Christians, for central to everything we believe and teach is our faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. We are grateful for our Judeo-Christian heritage, for the Holy Bible which we accept without reservation as the word of God, except as to some errors that have crept in through translations.[44]
1997
Jacob Neusner, one of the great Judaism scholars of the twentieth century: “Christianity encompasses a remarkably diverse set of religious systems that have some qualities in common—belief in Jesus Christ—but also differ deeply, especially about matters on which they seem at first glance to concur. For example, who, exactly was, and is, Jesus Christ? No one imagines that by describing a single common denominator Christianity tells us about one unitary religion. Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox, Methodist, Mormon, and Lutheran—each is comprised by clearly delineated groups of Christians, all of them with their respective systems of belief and behaviour...as the world knows Christianities, but no single Christianity, so the world has known, and today recognizes, diverse Judaisms, no single Judaism.”[45]
2006
Bart Ehrman, a leading expert on the text of the New Testament: “...just as Christianity today is incredibly diverse (compare the Roman Catholics with the Mormons with the Pentecostals with the Seventh Day Adventists with the Eastern Orthodox… and so on!), it was even more diverse in the early centuries...” (”A Few Questions for Bart Ehrman,” Oxford University Press Blog (OUPblog) (9 October 2006). off-site
Clearly, the Church has “claimed” to be Christian for a long time, and even hostile critics realized it. To insist that this is a new, public relations move is false. Neutral observers have also seen the Church as Christian. Only a recent, intolerent fringe of fundamentalist Christianity has tried to exclude the Church from Christianity by self-serving definitions.
[edit]
Conclusion
Critics use a self-serving and self-referential definition of “Christian” to exclude the LDS. They ignore the fact that many other Christians over the millennia would have disagreed with them on the same points, yet this does not disqualify these other believers from the family of “Christians.”
Claims that the Church has only recently been asserting its Christian status are false, as attested by LDS scripture, practice, doctrine, and public statements of its leadership and its early critics.
Ironically, many of those who attack the Church and its members for not being Christians show a distinct lack of the Christian virtues themselves:
There has been no end to opposition. There are misinterpretations and misrepresentations of us and of our history, some of it mean-spirited and certainly contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and His gospel. Sometimes clergy, even ministerial organizations, oppose us. They do what we would never do. We do not attack or criticize or oppose others as they do us...Strangest of all, otherwise intelligent people claim we are not Christian. This shows that they know little or nothing about us. It is a true principle that you cannot lift yourself by putting others down.[46]
[edit]
Endnotes
[back] For a discussion by a non-LDS, conservative evangelical on points of doctrine upon which modern evangelical Christianity differs with the doctrines taught by the early Christian Fathers, see: David W. Bercot, Will The Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today’s Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity, 3rd edition, (Tyler, Texas: Scroll Publishing Company, 1999[1989]), 1. ISBN 0924722002
[back] For a discussion of these issues, see Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks, “Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity, (Provo, Utah: FARMS, no date). off-site
[back] Rev. John Sherer to Absalom Peters, 18 November 1830, published in Dan Vogel (editor), Early Mormon Documents (Salt Lake City, Signature Books, 1996-2003), 5 vols, 4:93.
[back] James G. Bennett, Morning Courier and New York Enquirer, 31 August 1831.
[back] The Farmer’s Herald, vol. 4, no. 49, 6 June 1832 [Johnsbury, Vermont]
[back] Liberal Advocate, vol. 3, no. 6, 30 December 1833 [Rochester, New York]
[back] Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 2:83. GospeLink
[back] Painesville Telegraph, vol. 1, no. 35, 4 September 1835 [Painesville, Ohio]
[back] Dean C. Jesse, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, revised edition, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 2002), 144. ISBN 1573457876. off-site
[back] The New York Evangelist, vol. 6, no. 15, 9 April 1836; letter written on 1 April 1836 by James H. Eells who lived in Elyra, Ohio)
[back] Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 121. ISBN 087579243X. off-site
[back] Francis G. Bishop, Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter Day Saints (Blum and Son, Salem, Massachusetts 1839): 2.
[back] Parley P. Pratt, Plain Facts (Manchester, England: W. R. Thomas, 1840), 6.
[back] “Nauvoo Mormon Religion,” Times and Seasons 2/8 (15 February 1841): 324. off-site GospeLink; reprint of an article from the Upper Mississippian
[back] Chicago Democrat, May 1842; editorial by John Wentworth
[back] Cited by Helen Mar Whitney, Woman’s Exponent 10/13 (1 December 1881): 97–99. Available in Jeni Broberg Holzapfel and Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, eds., A Woman’s View: Helen Mar Whitney’s Reminiscences of Early Church History (Provo: Religious Studies Center, BYU, 1997), 149. ISBN 1570083576. ISBN 978-1570083570. GospeLink
[back] (”Difference Between the Baptists & Latter-day Saints,” Times and Seasons 3/23 (1 October 1843): 931–932. off-site GospeLink (italics added)
[back] Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 314. ISBN 087579243X. off-site
[back] “Magna est veritas, et praevalebit’ (Not sure of translationvol=5,” Times and Seasons {{{vol}}}/15 (15 August 1844): 621. off-site GospeLink
[back] Brigham Young, “Effects and Privileges of the Gospel,” Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt (24 July 1853), Vol. 1 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1854), 237. off-site wiki
[back] Brigham Young, “Government of God,” Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt, J.V. Long and others, (22 May 1859), Vol. 7 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1860), 148. off-site wiki; Brigham Young 9/13 Deseret News (1 June 1859): 104.
[back] Juley Remy, Journey to Great Salt Lake City (1861), 2:82–83; cited by B. Carmon Hardy (editor), Doing the Works of Abraham: Mormong Polygamy, Its origin, practice and demise, Vol. 9 of Kingdom in the West Series: The Mormons and the American Frontier (series editor Will Bagley), (Norman, Oklahoma: The Arthur H. Clark Company, 2007), 195. ISBN 0870623443. ISBN 978-0870623448..
[back] Brigham Young, “Advice To California Emigrants. — The Principles Of The Gospel, etc.,” Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt and J.V. Long, (8 July 1863), Vol. 10 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1865), 230–231. off-site wiki
[back] Brigham Young, “Difference Of Ideas Entertained Respecting God, etc.,” Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt and J.V. Long, (31 July 1863), Vol. 10 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1865), 318–319. off-site wiki
[back] Brigham Young, “Remarks by President Brigham Young,” Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt, E.L. Sloan, and D.W. Evans, (19 August 1866), Vol. 11 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1867), 268. off-site
[back] Brigham Young, Deseret News Weekly 15/109 (4 March 1866): page?.; cited in Eldon Watson (editor), Brigham Young Addresses (1982), 5:32.
[back] {{{author}}}, “{{{article}}},” Millennial Star 28/12 (24 March 1866): 179.
[back] Brigham Young, “The Saints Are A Strange People Because They Practise What They Profess,” Journal of Discourses, reported by D.W. Evans and John Grimshaw, (20 February 1870), Vol. 13 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1871), 237–238. off-site
[back] Brigham Young, “Discourse by President Brigham Young,” Journal of Discourses, reported by D.W. Evans, J.Q. Cannon and Julia Young, (3 June 1871), Vol. 14 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1872), 195–196. off-site; Brigham Young, “Discourse by President Brigham Young,” Millennial Star 33/27 (4 July 1871): 418–420.; DNW 20:235.
[back] Brigham Young, “Remarks by President Brigham Young,” Journal of Discourses, reported by D.W. Evans, J.Q. Cannon and Julia Young, (27 August 1871), Vol. 14 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1872), 26–27. off-site; Discourse by President Brigham Young 20/31 Deseret News (6 September 1871): 357–358.
[back] Brigham Young, “Riches — Hurry — Fashion — Helping The Poor — Mysteries,” Journal of Discourses, reported by D.W. Evans, J.Q. Cannon and Julia Young, (26 May 1872), Vol. 15 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1873), 42. off-site
[back] John Taylor, “Discourse by Elder John Taylor,” Journal of Discourses, reported by D.W. Evans, J.Q. Cannon and Julia Young, (3 March 1872), Vol. 14 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1872), 338. off-site Discourse by Elder John Taylor 21/36 Deseret News (13 March 1872): 65, second column.
[back] Orson Pratt, “Discourse by Elder Orson Pratt,” Journal of Discourses, reported by D.W. Evans, J.Q. Cannon and Julia Young, (10 March 10 1872), Vol. 14 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1872), 348. off-site; Orson Pratt 21/{{{num}}} Deseret News (20 March 1872): 77, fourth column.
[back] Brigham Young, “Discourse By President Brigham Young,” Journal of Discourses, reported by D.W. Evans, G.F. Gibbs, and others, (15 August 1876), Vol. 18 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1877), 217. off-site
[back] Brigham Young, “Discourse By President Brigham Young,” Journal of Discourses, reported by D.W. Evans, G.F. Gibbs, and others, (17 September 1876), Vol. 18 (London: Latter-day Saint’s Book Depot, 1877), 231. off-site
[back] Editorial (Elder David McKenzie), “Christianity and Revivalism,” Millennial Star 38/10 (6 March 1876): 152.
[back] Editorial (Elder David McKenzie), “Gifts of the Holy Ghost,” Millennial Star 38/13 (27 March 1876): 200–201.
[back] Editorial (Elder David McKenzie), “Evidences of the Truth,” Millennial Star 38/14 (3 April 1876): 217.
[back] Francis M. Lyman, General Conference, 5 April 5 1881, in, “{{{article}}},” Millennial Star 43/19 (9 May 1881): 292.
[back] Editorial on citizens of Beaver Dam, Virginia removing Mormon Elders by force to another part of the state, Deseret News Weekly 45/13 (17 September 1892): 396.
[back] ?, Deseret News Weekly 45/14 (24 September 1892): 441.
[back] ?, Deseret News Weekly 45/25 (10 December 1892): 780.
[back] First Presidency, “Address to the World,” Improvement Era (May 1907): 481–495. GospeLink
[back] Hugh B. Brown, “Discourse,” Improvement Era (December 1956): 949–949. GospeLink
[back] Boyd K. Packer, “A Defense and a Refuge,” Ensign (November 2006): 85–88. off-site
[back] Jacob Neusner, The Way Of Torah, 6th edition, (Belmont, California: Wadsworth Publishing Company, 1997), 15. ISBN 0534516033.
“My idea is more precise. For example, the Greek Orthodox Church can claim to be charismatic - a Greek word - baptist - a Greek word, episcopalian - a Greek word - presbyterian - another Greek word.....”
Indeed, these are Greek words, but the crowd around here will assure you that Greeks have no idea of what their language means. I mean for 1500 years we Greeks completely misunderstood our own language in the scriptures. To make matters worse, when 1500 years later a bunch of German and French speaking folks really did understand the Greek and let the world know what it meant, we Greeks, being really bad people, refused and failed to accept their enlightened Western European understanding of their Greek language and Faith. Can you imagine not acknowledging the superior holiness of those Westerners! But it gets worse, we STILL won’t believe what the Westerners tell us we must believe and we PERSIST in thinking we understand our own language best!
See, T, this is why our Triune God arranged for the NT to be written in Greek, so we could have every possible advantage. We needed the leg up more than the smarter Westerners.
When he was about to be taken into the barracks, Paul said to the Tribune, "May I speak to you?" "Do you know Greek?" the Tribune asked. - Acts 21:37
“Paul said to the Tribune, “May I speak to you?” “Do you know Greek?” the Tribune asked. - Acts 21:37”
See what I mean?!
An understanding of the Trinity isn’t always the ‘starting point’ for faith, and many Christians struggle some time with the concept. In the end, it is not in theologians or learned men that we base our faith, but the Word of truth in scripture. If something does not exist with sound biblical reading, then it is our understanding which is at fault, not scripture.
I believe that the Bible, read with humility and through the guidance of the Spirit, will eventually lead to an understanding of the Trinity. The difficulty though, is that the Trinity is not a ‘human’ concept, and flies in the face of much that the world teaches. God however, is not bound by human ‘wisdom’, and with Him all things are possible.
Well, all that red ink sure convinced me. But I forget what was your point?
I try to understand both Mormons and Muslims, and to respect their beliefs while affirming that only through Christ is their truth and salvation. This is difficult at times though, as sometimes their holy books twist the words and understanding that God presents to us in His Word.
I remember reading at one point that the Muslim text in the Ka’abah contradicts the Quran, and wish I could find that reference again.
Oh, further note. If I recall correctly, the statue of one of the Greek godesses that was worshipped (I'm thinking Artemis, but I may be wrong) was thought to have originated from the sky, as was one to Ashtarte/Aphrodite Urania in Aphek.
That earliest Artemis temple at Ephesus contained a sacred stone, probably a meteorite, that had "fallen from Jupiter."
Frankly, we don’t care what you accept or reject. You are free to worship however, whoever and whatever you please.
You may care at the Rapture, or maybe, at the Second Coming.
Huh? We do not believe nor teach any such thing.
Would you leave Mormonism if we show you where your teachers have taught just that thing?... I doubt it; if you are like the typical Mormonism adherent, you will make any mental twist to continue believing the lies at the heart of Mormonism.
Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373 [pre-2002 edition]; D&C 93:29-33; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:18-28
Why would I leave what God has told me is true?
Leave it for what? For man-made doctrines of councils and confusion? For a church without ongoing revelation? No thanks. Been there, done that.
“It has been just recently that the Mormons have started this new Campaign to have the world refer them as “Christians”.
And if you do not call them Christians you are a bigot.”
I recently read a book written about an ex-mormon, and when he described the struggle his mormon wife had with his disillusionment her response was that she was NOT going to become a christian!
I’m not sure why it is so offensive to say the mormon teaching cannot fall under the definition of “christian”.
Even with all the different denominations in christianity, the issues that divide are not nearly as severe as a church that teaches God was a man. That Christ was conceived when “God” had normal human relations with Mary. That God grew into what he is now, and that we also can become “gods”
This is so far out in left field, it isn’t even close.
When baptists and catholics argue about baptism or communion, I don’t see those issues nearly as insurmountable as the claim that humans can become gods.
You don’t read the stuff you copy and paste, do you?
If you read, you surely do not understand.
No such doctrine is taught in the four sources you referenced, nor is such doctrine taught in the LDS Church.
God the Father—the Father of Christ our Savior, the father of my spirit and yours—is the Father of the Universe. There may be other inhabitants on other worlds, there may even be other offspring with whom He has shared his godhood, and we ALL have the potential to inherit his glory and become like Him, but we will never be equal to Him, nor will we ever worship any other gods to the exclusion of Him.
And why CAN’T humans become gods?
Elder Brigham Young, Conference Report, October 1897, Afternoon Session
I am thankful that the brethren have touched upon our weaknesses. We claim to be Christians. What is a Christian? It is one who does the will of the Father, that lives in obedience to the commandments of Christ. If I do not these things, I am not a Christian.
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