Posted on 10/24/2007 8:18:14 AM PDT by topcat54
I think
musings and leanings
are fitting to my own experience.
Given my personality . . . they seem like rather muted words but . . . that’s another issue.
Perhaps I’d call musings my ponderings.
And leanings, my convictions from prayerful podnering.
But you’re the gracious saint and I’m the . . . something in a china shop goading the other uhhhhhh donkeys to uhhhhh learn how to throw pots from the Master or get the well out of the china shop.
I think, for me, convictions . . . are my convictions. I may FEEL like others ought to share the convictions but they don’t rise to the level of clear and plain Scriptural doctrine, per se. I’m rather comfortable having my convictions rejected as not orthodox . . . at least most of the time. LOL. . . . though I may pontificate as though they are priceless gems on occasion. They do usually come with some experience with Scripture and life of Holy Spirit having confirmed them a several times.
Ponderings are more postulations, hypotheses . . . things on the theological shelf waiting to see what of them God confirms in this time/space dimension and/or eternity.
THX
LUB
BEAUTIFULLY and masterfully put, as usual.
Thx.
Actually, it does not say that at all. James was quoting directly from the Old Testament. The OT uses the phrase "after this". James is interpreting the OT prophecy (correctly) by applying it to Jesus Christ (the true Tabernacle, cf. John 1:14), and saying that since the "tabernacle has been rebuilt" (Christ raised from the dead) the result would be that many gentiles are called into the kingdom. And that is precisely what was happening in the first century and from then on.
So the phrase "after this" is from the perspective of the OT prophet. The fulfillment is in Jesus Christ and the calling of the gentiles into His kingdom
There is no futurism in Acts 15. There is no rebuilding of earthly Jerusalem anywhere in the NT. In fact we are told that those who long for and look for earthly Jerusalem are the children of Hagar, not the children of promise "The Jerusalem above is free." (Gal. 4).
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things." [Acts 15]
Once again your preterist presuppositions cloud the plain reading of the text. Does your Bible have the words "After this" in it? Are the words "I will return ..." yet still in the future? You preterists need to get yourself some Bibles with all the verb tenses in them -- Past, Present, and F-U-T-U-R-E.
INDEED, INDEED! Well put, Uncle Chip, on all points.
AMEN.
I apologize if I overreacted to your comments. I appreciate the spirit in which they were given.
PREPOSTEROUSLY AND OUTRAGEOUSLY WRONG.
I don't have time to track down all the NT refs . . . I will content myself with another note from Walvoord reffing the OT and mentioning many other (including NT) refs. p333 EVERY PROPHECY IN THE BIBLE
Zechariah 14:9-21. The millenial kingdom will be distinguished by the fact that the Lord, Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and King of kings will rule over the entire earth (v. 9). Included in the topographical changes will be the elevation [literal] of Jerusalem as described in verse 10. From that day forward Jerusalem will be secure and never be destroyed again.
An indication of the rule of Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords is that He will judge the nations that fought against Jerusalem (vv. 12-13). A plague will seize man and beast alike, but in the results a great quantity of gold, silver, and clothing will accrue to Israel's benefit (v14).
Those who survive the purging judgments at the beginning of the millenial kingdom will be required to worship Christ annually (v. 16). If they do not worship Him as commanded, God will hold their rain (vv. 17-19). It will be a time when the holiness of God is especially revealed, and false elements like the Canaanites will be shut out (vv. 20-21). The partial revelation of the nature of the millenial kingdom as described here was amplified in many other Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments.
ibid p 106
Isaiah 32:1-20. Israel will have 'a King' who 'will reign in righteousness and rulers will rule with justice' (v. 1). Isaiah predicted that Israel at that time would listen to His exhortation (vv. 2-8). Israel was promised severe judgment from God but ultimate restoration and deliverance (vv. 9-20). The passage concluded, 'how blessed you will be, sowing your seed by every stream, and letting your cattle and donkeys range free' (v. 20). This will be fulfilled in the Millenium (Jer. 23:5-8; Rev. 19:11-15).
To be continued.
Except for these words:
"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up" [Acts 15]
There is no rebuilding of earthly Jerusalem anywhere in the NT
Except for these words:
"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up"[Acts 15]
In fact we are told that those who long for and look for earthly Jerusalem are the children of Hagar, not the children of promise "The Jerusalem above is free." (Gal. 4).
It doesn't say that at all, Here it is:
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." [Galatians 4]
The Jerusalem in that day was in bondage, not the Jerusalem that they looked for and longed for and that Jesus promised that He would return to, and restore, and rebuild, and place his throne.
Once again your explanations bear no resemblance to the text.
You are exactly right. James is explaining how the OT prophecy mentioned in Acts 15 was already being fulfilled.
And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
And, since it is the Gentiles and the rest of mankind that were AT THAT MOMENT already seeking the Lord as testified by Peter we also know that the fulfillment of the rebuilding of the tabernacle had ALREADY been accomplished. The prophecy makes it clear that the gentiles seeking God would happen after the tabernacle was rebuilt.
Now, what event had recently happened which would have been the fulfillment of the rebuilding of the tabernacle? Let’s see if the dispies can figure it out.
BTW, Chip, you are still using circular logic in Acts 3 concering the times of restoration of all things. And, you still haven’t explained how the restoration of all things really doesn’t mean the restoration of all things. As Quix likes to claim: are you having trouble with the literal meaning of things?
***There is no futurism in Acts 15. ~ topcat54
Except for these words:
“After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up” [Acts 15]***
Future to the OT prophet.
Past to James & Peter....
And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
James is clearly declaring that they were with their own eyes seeing the fulfillment of the prophecy in the coming of the Gentiles to the Lord. And that ingrafting of gentiles was prophecied AFTER the rebuilding of the tabernacle.
So, off you now go to figure out what significant event was recently accomplished which was the fulfillment of that rebuild.....
Correct. The OT prophets were true futurists. Peter and James were "contemporarists" on the fulfillment. They witnessed the fulfillment in the person and work of Christ, and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, in particular on the gentiles who were coming to faith and being ingrafted to spiritual Israel.
"And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
Now was that Jesus who tabernacled among them or David who tabernacled among them??? Hmmm.
And are you saying that the resurrected body of Jesus was "fallen down" at that time??? Hmmmm
And just what tabernacle would Jesus be tabernacling in when He returns to restore the tabernacle of David???? Hmmmm
BTW the word for "tabernacle" [skene]also means "habitation", and the place where David did his habitating [tabernacling] was/is Jerusalem, which I'm sure you are aware, has always been known as "The City of David". That is what the "tabernacle of David" means in that verse.
But the text of Acts 15 says that the ingrafting of the Gentiles is occurring BEFORE He returns to restore and rebuild the tabernacle of David. What is happening in the text before the words "After this"???
Jesus, for of Jesus and David we read:
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." ' 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2)And are you saying that the resurrected body of Jesus was "fallen down" at that time??? Hmmmm
Christ tabernacled among His people (John 1:14) and was crucified, His body placed in the ground, and then raised up, thus fulfilling the prophecy, according to James in Acts 15. The fact that many gentiles were coming to faith in Christ is proof of its fulfillment, again according to James.
And just what tabernacle would Jesus be tabernacling in when He returns to restore the tabernacle of David???? Hmmmm
He did restore the "tabernacle of David", when He was raised from the dead and began calling the gentiles to Himself per James.
which I'm sure you are aware, has always been known as "The City of David". That is what the "tabernacle of David" means in that verse.
Regardless of what it might have meant in the OT, the apostles and elders gave us the infallible, authoritative interpretation of the Amos 9 prophecy in Acts 15 when they applied it to Jesus, His resurrection and the calling of the gentiles.
If you take this to mean some far future fulfilled in the physical city of Jerusalem, the clearly James misinterpreted the prophet and was quite incorrect in trying to apply it to a contemporary situation with the then calling of the gentiles.
11 "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name," Says the Lord who does this thing. (Amos 9)
We know from James in Acts 15 that the timing of "on that day" corresponds to the resurrection of Christ and the calling of the gentiles to faith in the first century and beyond.
No Jesus tabernacled among them not David. And if they were referring to his heritage at all, they would call him "Son of David" not "David".
The fact that many gentiles were coming to faith in Christ is proof of its fulfillment, again according to James.
You have it backwards. The restoration of the tabernacle of David is to occur after the visitation to the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name. Read the text -- it's right there plain as day.
I noticed you conveniently missed commenting on the impact of Peter words concerning Christ as the greater David in Acts 2.
If you do not take all the Bible into account you will consistently come up with the wrong answers.
Jesus asked them, 42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." 43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 44 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? 45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?" (Matt. 22)
Neither Amos 9 (which I quoted) nor Acts 15 (also quoted) reads that way. You are placing the cart before the futurist horse.
***But the text of Acts 15 says that the ingrafting of the Gentiles is occurring BEFORE He returns to restore and rebuild the tabernacle of David. What is happening in the text before the words “After this”???***
You are, AGAIN, reading your Eschatology into the passage instead of getting it out of the passage.
Look at what James says:
And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
What does James say: THE PROPHETS AGREE with Peter.
What does Peter say: Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Gentiles hear and believe ~ Peter
The prophets agree ~ James
So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the LORD who does all these things. ~ the prophet.
James testifies that the fulfillment of the gentiles believing is occuring in the gospel preaching of Peter. You are assuming that the prophecy in Acts 15 is teaching that the “I will return” promise of the Lord is the SECOND coming of Christ. You are also assuming that the FIRST coming of Christ in the flesh is also the absolute first coming of Christ to his people.
Your Dispensational assumptions have you blind. You are just as blind as the Pharisees were when they saw the Incarnate LORD of the OT standing before them as the sum and substance of Biblical Prophecy. The Lord RETURNED to his people 2000 years ago. The LORD rebuilt the tabernacle in the person and resurrected body of Christ. The nations are coming.
Peter testified to it.
James asserted that it was just as the prophets said.
Why don’t you believe it?
And, you are still also at a quandry in Acts 3 concerning the times of the restoration of ALL THINGS.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.