Posted on 10/24/2007 8:18:14 AM PDT by topcat54
An article is circulating around the Internet that carries the title “Israel Warns World War III May be Biblical War of Gog and Magog.” It is written by Ezra HaLevi and was published in Israel National News.1 The article begins with the following prophetic claims, not unlike so many evangelical and fundamentalist end-time assurances about the end:
US President George W. Bush said a nuclear Iran would mean World War III. Israeli newscasts featured Gog & Magog maps of the likely alignment of nations in that potential conflict. Channel 2 and Channel 10 TV showed the world map, sketching the basic alignment of the two opposing axes in a coming world war, in a manner evoking associations of the Gog and Magog prophecy for many viewers. The prophecy of Gog and Magog refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel). On one side were Israel, the United States, Britain, France and Germany. On the other were Iran, Russia, China, Syria and North Korea.
M. R. DeHaan, writing in 1951, identified “the sign of Gog and Magog” to be one of the “three most outstanding signs of the coming of Christ.”2 In 1972, Carl Johnson wrote Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These.3 His chapter on “When Russia Invades the Middle East” includes a lengthy quotation from a message Jack Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple in Canton, Ohio, sometime in 1969. Like so many who claim to know what’s on the prophetic horizon, Van Impe made his case for an imminent war with Russia on what the newspapers of 1969 were reporting. This war was so close, he charged, “that the stage is being set for what could explode into World War III at any moment.”4 In 1971, Ronald Reagan, then governor of California, followed a similar prophetic script:
Ezekiel tells us that Gog, the nation that will lead all of the other powers of darkness against Israel, will come out of the north. Biblical scholars have been saying for generations that Gog must be Russia. What other powerful nation is to the north of Israel? None. But it didn’t seem to make sense before the Russian revolution, when Russia was a Christian country. Now it does, now that Russia has become Cummunistic and atheistic, now that Russia has set itself against God. Now it fits the description of Gog perfectly.5
This familiar interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been written about, talked about, and repeated so often that it has become an unquestioned tenet of prophetic orthodoxy. The question is, does the Bible teach it?
Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been interpreted in various ways over the centuries. The most popular view is to see the prophecy as a depiction of a future battle that includes an alliance of nations led by modern-day Russia in an attack on Israel. Chuck Missler writes in his book Prophecy 20/20 that “the apparent use of nuclear weapons has made this passage [Ezekiel 38 and 39] appear remarkably timely, and some suspect that it may be on our horizon.”6 Prophecy writers for nearly 2000 years have made similar claims, of course without the reference to “nuclear weapons.” In the fourth and fifth centuries, Gog was thought to refer to the Goths and Moors. In the seventh century, it was the Huns. By the eighth century, the Islamic empire was making a name for itself, so it was a logical candidate. By the tenth century, the Hungarians briefly replaced Islam. But by the sixteenth century, the Turks and Saracens seemed to fit the Gog and Magog profile with the Papacy thrown in for added prophetic juice. In the seventeenth century, Spain and Rome were the end-time bad guys.7 In the nineteenth century, Napoleon was Gog leading the forces of Magog-France.8 For most of the twentieth century, Communist Russia was the logical pick with its military aspirations, its atheistic founding, and its designation of being “far north” of Israel. In a word, identifying Gog and Magog with a specific nation or group of nations in the past is legion.9
As the above brief study shows, when the headlines change, the interpretation of the Bible changes. The failed interpretive history of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is prime evidence that modern-day prophecy writers are not “profiling the future through the lens of Scripture” but through the ever-changing headlines of the evening news.10
A lot has to be read into the Bible in order to make Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit modern-day military realities that include jet planes, “missiles,” and “atomic and explosive” weaponry. Those who claim to interpret the Bible literally have a problem on their hands.
The battle in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is clearly an ancient one or at least one fought with ancient weapons. All the soldiers are riding horses (38:4, 15; 39:20). These horse soldiers are “wielding swords” (38:4), carrying “bows and arrows, war clubs and spears” (39:3, 9). The weapons are made of wood (39:10), and it is these abandoned weapons that serve as fuel for “seven years” (39:9). Tim LaHaye describes a highly technological future when the antichrist rises to power to rule the world. “A wave of technological innovation is sweeping the planet. . . . The future wave has already begun. We cannot stop it. . . . [T]he Antichrist will use some of this technology to control the world.”11 How does this assessment of the near prophetic future square with a supposed tribulation period when Israelites “take wood from the field” and “gather firewood from the forests”? (39:10). There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to conclude that horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears mean anything other than horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears. And what is the Russian air force after? Gold, silver, cattle, and goods (38:12–13). In what modern war can anyone remember armies going after cattle? How much cattle does Israel have? Certainly not enough to feed the Russians! The latest claim is that Israel will discover oil, and this is what will attract the nations to Israel. Where in the Bible do we find this claim?12
Chuck Missler attempts to get around the description of ancient war implements by claiming that the various Hebrew words “is simply 2,500-year-old language that could be describing a mechanized force.”13 The word translated “horse,” “actually means leaper” that “can also mean bird, or even chariot-rider.” He tells us that the Hebrew word translated “sword” “has become a generic term for any weapon or destroying instrument.” In a similar way, “arrow” means “piercer” and “is occasionally used for thunderbolt” and could be “translated today as a missile.” We are to believe that “‘Bow’ is what launches the [missile].”14 Is Missler trying to tell us that when Ezekiel wrote “bow” and “arrow” he really meant a launching pad for a missile? To follow his interpretive methodology requires us to believe that the meaning of the Bible has been inaccessible to the people of God for nearly 2500 years. Missler, like nearly all end-time prognosticators, breaks all the rules of exegesis.
2. M. R. DeHaan, Signs of the Times and other Prophetic Messages (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1951), 74.
3. Carl G. Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These (Chicago: Moody Press, 1972).
4. Jack Van Impe, The Coming War With Russia (Old Time Gospel Hour Press, n.d.). The quotation is taken from a message that Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple, Canton, Ohio. The talk was recorded and available on a as an LP. Quoted in Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These, 82–83.
5. From an address that Ronald Reagan gave at a dinner with California legislators in 1971. Quoted in Paul Boyer, When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern Culture (Cambridge, MA: The Belknap Press of Harvard University, 1992), 162.
6. Chuck Missler, Prophecy 20/20: Profiling the Future Through the Lens of Scripture (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 2006), 155.
7. Francis X. Gumerlock, The Day and the Hour: Christianity’s Perennial Fascination with Predicting the End of the World (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2000), 68.
8. T.R., “Commentary on Ezekiel’s Prophecy of Gog and Magog,” The Gentleman’s Magazine (October 1816), 307.
9. Wikipedia
10. Gary DeMar, Islam and Russia in Prophecy: The Problem of Interpreting the Bible Through the Lens of History (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2005).
11. Tim LaHaye, “The Coming Wave,” in Ed Hindson and Lee Fredrickson, Future Wave: End Times, Prophecy, and the Technological Explosion (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 2001), 7–8.
12. This claim will be discussed in a later chapter.
13. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.
14. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.
Tell that to James and Peter. They were ones who took Amos 9 and applied it to contemporary events in their day.
Maybe they were not "literalists". Maybe they saw the true spiritual fulfillment of the prophecies.
Completely inaccurate statement and understanding...
We did not replace Israel...There are three positions here, not two...
Israel we can say is on the left...The Gentiles are on the right...Christians are in the center...
Gentiles come from the right to the center to become Christians...Israel comes from the left to the center to become Christians...
That why there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, AS CHRISTIANS...
Shortly God will be done calling the Gentiles on the right...He will again focus his attention on his chosen on the left...
We do not become Isreal any more than Israel becomes Gentiles...
***This is after Jesus shows up again...Has it been fulfilled??? Of course not...***
Which part hasn’t been fulfilled: OUT OF ZION [shall come] the deliver. Did you MISS the Incarnation of the living God? Are men turning away from ungodliness? Were not their sins taken away by the Passover Lamb? Is not all Israel currently being saved? (the answer to all the questions is “yes” BTW)
The only part that I see which is not yet complete is the fullness of the gentiles.
See, all you Dispensationalists are STILL reading the Scriptures through the filter of your eschatology. The Deliverer has ALREADY come.
***When God is done with the Gentiles, he will turn again to Israel...***
In our Gospel God never abandoned Israel. Blindness has come only in PART. The Lord is, even STILL, seperating his sheep from the goats for they are not all Israel that are of Israel. Learn the simple gospel truth:
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. ~ Paul, the Apostle.
BTW, also note that Paul denotes the blood Israelites as “of the seed of Abraham.”
You mean they really didn't believe the word of God???
Of course it does not say that at all. In fact we know the Deliverer has come to Israel.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." 22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."So Romans 11 does not say that at all, unless you want to deny that either a) Jesus came in the flesh and redeemed Israel, or that b) the people living in Jerusalem and Judea in those days were not "Israel".
You’re reading your own chronology into the Romans 11 passage when there really is no chronology as you have suggested.
All it says, plainly, is that there is a partial hardening of Israel, that this hardening will continue until "fullness of the Gentiles has come in", and that all Israel will be saved.
I’m sure in your heart of heart you want it to say thus and so, but many faulty interpretations happen by reading to much into the text, like our own biases.
I can't imagine how you and others can't see it, unless you have been blinded as well...
Nope, we just don’t read the same dispensational books or listen to the same guys on TV.
Nope. Your explanation is both welcome and sound. 8~) Hold fast the form of sound words...in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us." -- 2 Timothy 1:3,13-14"I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day...
***Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
That’s the restoration of Israel...
I can’t imagine how you and others can’t see it, unless you have been blinded as well...***
I encourage you to look at the Lamb of God who has ALREADY taken away the sins of the world. Have you missed the Incarnation of the living God?
Why does your Eschatology center around a group of men in the desert instead of having your Eschatology center aroung the Creator and Redeemer of the universe?
Not at all. They just didn't trust Scofield's Notes.
***That’s because in dispensationalism earthly Israel and not Christ is the object and fulfillment of many if not most of the OT prophecies. They truly believe that the promises were made to national Israel, rather than to Christ as the Seed of Abraham per Paul’s words in Galatians 3.***
Perzackly!!!
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
Do you read the bible??? Do you believe the bible???
The scripture said After the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, the Deliverer shows up...Do you get that??? Do you understand that???
Is not all Israel currently being saved?
Most of the Isrealis are non religious...They are being blown up and bombed daily...
I don't know what news channel you watch but Israel is NOT currently being saved...
The only part that I see which is not yet complete is the fullness of the gentiles.
AND THAT HAS TO HAPPEN FIRST before the Deliverer shows up!!!!!
Jesus came the first time as a prophet...The second time he will come as a Roaring Lion and Deliver his people, Israel from the Nations of the World...
Oh come now....I've been to the mill numerous times to buy a bag of corn 'seed'...And you know what, there are thousands of them little things in the bag...Not just one seed...
***Shortly God will be done calling the Gentiles on the right...He will again focus his attention on his chosen on the left...***
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. ~ Paul, the Apostle.
Paul uses the fact that he and countless others of the seed of Abraham were coming to the Lord as proof that God has not cast away his people. The Deliver has come.
***We do not become Isreal any more than Israel becomes Gentiles...***
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
There is only one root; Christ. There is only one vine; Israel. We are grafted into her. For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
You have to understand, what’s going on in the world today and for the past 2000 years wrt ethnic Israel is just an afterthought, a parenthesis. The real action doesn’t come until these "semi-Jews" and their gentile brethren that are part of the Church get raptured away. Then the real fun begins.
Two-thirds of the millions of ethnic Jews (God's earthly people) living in Israel are slaughtered. The blood covers an areas 200 miles in all directions to a depth of 3 or 4 feet.
Then one hundred and forty-four thousand Jewish evangelists are able to accomplish in just a couple years what centuries of faithful believers, many Jewish themselves, empowered by the Holy Spirit were unable to accomplish, the mass conversion of "all Israel". Every last living Jews, man, woman and child, gets converted almost instantly.
And mind you they are able to accomplish this in the midst of utter chaos and total destruction going on in the world, stars falling from heavens, creature coming up from the ground and tormenting men, floods, earthquakes, rivers turned to blood, thousand pound chucks of ice falling, disruptions of all sorts. All electricity and communications in a shambles. Nobody "left behind" to run the TBN transmitter and keep the satellites in orbit.
It boggles the mind.
lol, or British Empirilism
No he didn't. Jesus had just left from his first visit at His Ascension in 30 AD. So when did He return??? Did his second coming [return] occur between 30 AD and 50 AD??? Come on -- you're pullin' our legs.
You realize, don't you, that you are arguing directly with the Word of God?
Paul in Galatians 3 makes it clear that all the promises were made to Christ, the Seed, and that those who are in Christ share in the blessing and fruit of those promises. We are the true children of Abraham.
***The scripture said After the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled, the Deliverer shows up...Do you get that??? Do you understand that???***
Scriptures say no such thing regarding this passage. Out of Zion, the Deliver has already come. When the Lord returns to the earth, he will not be come out of Zion, but out of heaven. Do you get that??? Do you understand that???
***Most of the Isrealis are non religious...They are being blown up and bombed daily...
I don’t know what news channel you watch but Israel is NOT currently being saved...***
When all else fails, turn to Paul....
They are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham...
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
~ Paul, the Apostle.
Yes, I believe that all the children of God are being saved. Do you think that the precious ones of God are going to burn forever in the Lake of Fire? Is that YOUR gospel?
Good try -- but that's not possible.
James substituted the words: "after this I will return" for the words of Amos 9: "in that day", thus meaning that "that day" of Amos 9 would be the day when Jesus "will return".
And let's be clear -- His first coming cannot possibly be called "a return" visit. His second coming will be that day of His return.
The part that you seem to be missing is the fact that James links the calling of the gentiles what was happening in that day with the rebuilding of the tabernacle of David. He explicitly says "And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,"
The "tabernacle of David" needed to be rebuilt "so that" the nations might be called. There is no other reason for James to quote Amos unless this if-then connection is somehow true at that time.
So you can either deny the immediate connection between the "rebuilding" and the calling of the gentiles, or you can face the fact that James didn’t have some far off, futurist physical rebuilding in view.
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