Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer
The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy, by the historian Sergio Luzzatto, draws on a document found in the Vatican's archive.
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The document reveals the testimony of a pharmacist who said that the young Padre Pio bought four grams of carbolic acid in 1919.
"I was an admirer of Padre Pio and I met him for the first time on 31 July 1919," wrote Maria De Vito.
She claimed to have spent a month with the priest in the southern town of San Giovanni Rotondo, seeing him often.
"Padre Pio called me to him in complete secrecy and telling me not to tell his fellow brothers, he gave me personally an empty bottle, and asked if I would act as a chauffeur to transport it back from Foggia to San Giovanni Rotondo with four grams of pure carbolic acid.
"He explained that the acid was for disinfecting syringes for injections. He also asked for other things, such as Valda pastilles."
The testimony was originally presented to the Vatican by the Archbishop of Manfredonia, Pasquale Gagliardi, as proof that Padre Pio caused his own stigmata with acid.
It was examined by the Holy See during the beatification process of Padre Pio and apparently dismissed.
Padre Pio, whose real name was Francesco Forgione, died in 1968. He was made a saint in 2002. A recent survey in Italy showed that more people prayed to him than to Jesus or the Virgin Mary. He exhibited stigmata throughout his life, starting in 1911.
The new allegations were greeted with an instant dismissal from his supporters. The Catholic Anti-Defamation League said Mr Luzzatto was a liar and was "spreading anti-Catholic libels".
Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.
"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."
Yea.
It is NO mystery it is an inconsistency in your church teaching.
Either Jesus was "the only one that could fulfill the law perfectly " as your catechism says or he was not.
Either they are wrong here or wrong when they say Mary was sinless.
If they are wrong in their Catechism how could that be if the Pope and Magastum under him are infallible ?
This is no problem for me, Jesus needed a human mother, He himself was God.
Padre Pio draws and drew men to himself. People flocked to see HIM. He was revered .
Over 1 million people went to his beatification.He not Christ is he subject of web sites , books, relics etc.
He did not do "works" for Christ he did works for himself.
Christ hung 3 hours on a cross for the salvation of the elect. That pain was sufficient to purchase the souls of men. Padre lived years with that pain, was he more of a man than Christ? Stronger? .
This is not a mistake of grammar, or spelling this is DOCTRINE. Is there an error of doctrine in your Catechism?
" Next he would point out to you that he was forbidden to show anyone the stigmata, so if you don't like them, don't look at them (or try to look at them), look at Jesus instead.
Did anyone ever see his wounds?
Yes you are. You are praying to them as if they are omniscient. Otherwise, they would not have any idea that you are praying to them.
If a million are praying to them, how do they sort it all out? How do they know when one is praying at 6am and another at 2:30 pm?
If you had a million talking to you could you keep it straight? Would you know the 2000 who were voicing your name at 2:30 in the morning?
Why wouldn't you know? Because you're not omniscient. You are ascribing omniscience to them.
Carolyn
I’m quite aware of the process; I teach courses about it and have written articles on it. My point is that the Church has quite explicitly avoided taking a position on the question of whether the act of canonization enjoys papal infallibility. Many traditionalist Catholics claim that it does, but that is a theological claim that has never been adjudicated by a pope or a council.
And there are good reasons not to go there. A large part of the process of determining whether a person should be canonized, including the assessment of whether a miracle has taken place, rests on human investigation (historical research, medical judgment calls in the case of miracles). In my view it would be foolish to claim infallibility for what necessarily involves exercise of human prudence. And I think most theologians, including some of the greatest doctors of the Church would agree. Only a handful have ever asserted that canonization is an infallible act and they have received from the rest of the greatest doctors of the church a tellingly silent response.
We can say that to the best of our human ability a canonized person is in heaven and to the best of our ability two miracles took place to indicate God’s confirmation of that fact, but we cannot say this is true with the same certainty that we claim the Jesus of Nazareth died and rose from the dead or that he instituted the office of bishop or the Eucharist and the other sacraments or any of the theological teachings that derive from these particular historical facts.
Asked and answered.
This is the Church that the gates of hell will not prevail against; the Church that as one, in all races and all the inhabited continents, and for all the Christian centuries, has practiced intercessory prayer in mutual charity amongst all its members, both those on earth and those who have already passed through death to life.
You show me one member of the Church who warned against, proscribed or condemned this kind of intercessory prayer in the 1st century AD, the 2nd century, the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th, the 6th, (continue in series to the 15th)---
and then argue either that the Church didn't pray that way (which she did, starting in the earliest centuries as we know from evidence found in the catacombs), or that Christ's Church was in grievous error for 1500 years. (Which you can't do if the Holy Spirit is guiding His Church as He said He would.)
Can you post on this thread a copy of a “veneration address” to Pio?
Thanks.
You were an Army chaplain? Does one gun's being bigger than another mean it can do anything and everything?
Knowing more than you doesn't mean knowing everything. This is a logical error. That they know they're being prayed to doesn't mean they know everything.
Similarly if A is stronger than B we cannot conclude that A is omnipotent.
Consequently praying to the saints neither implies or requires a belief that they are omnipotent, just that they can do stuff I can't do. And that stuff is a gift from God.
Also, check out Augustine on time and eternity for help on how they "process" a gazillion prayers coming at them at once.
Of course you can pray directly to Jesus.
No.
... or influence future events?
Depends on what you mean by "influence." Since much prayer is petitionary, and since intercessory prayer means asking somebody else to make a petition to Almighty God, we can justifiably hope to "influence" future events by means of such prayer. Just as if you were to ask your mom, "Please pray that my wife's surgery turns out OK."
Just for say, a good chat?
(Smile) I don't know whether "chat" quite describes it, since I, for instance, have never heard anything like a repartee!
20+ years and a retireee.
It might surprise you that all chaplains are not Roman Catholic.
AND it might surprise you that every chaplain was required to faithfully represent their own denomination, while willingly COORDINATING religious support for those not of their own denomination. (In other words, I'd get with my buddy the priest to handle catholic issues that came up. He'd get with me to handle protestant issues that came up...and especially methodist ones.)
Campion: “Why does St. Paul as his readers, in several places in Scripture, to pray for him? Does he think he can’t go directly to Jesus?”
Well there is one obvious distinction here. Paul was asking for prayers from people who were still living on earth. Asking someone who has been glorified and lifted to heaven (i.e. already with God) to pray for you seems superfluous. Why would this saint need to pray?? This saint already has perfect communion with God...
I think it all comes down to who you want to glorify and whether you think God is truly sovereign. It is my desire to continually build my relationship to the one true soveriegn God - not Peter, Paul, Mary, Francis, Pio, etc.
When I ask other believers to pray for me, it is only because I know God works to sanctify his people through prayer - I assume these saints you are referring to require no further sanctification.
In general the unknowing unreasoning contempt for Catholicism and Catholics shown on threads like this one just confirms my belief.
Many of our antagonists perseverate, make obvious logical errors, change the subject when a poorly phrased question is patiently and clearly answered, and do other such things.
Here somebody posts an article about Padre Pio and a torrent of unreasoning aggression, derogatory personal remarks, and sweeping and mocking generalizations with little regard for facts or reason greet it. Some posters seem to think that rudeness and aggression are signs of strength and virtue, and mock those who point out the uselessness of it all. I would venture to say that you did not so learn Christ.
The difference between "more powerful" and "all powerful" is known to any boy who ever said, "My father can lick your father," (since it is evident that both think their fathers are more powerful than they, but still maintain that one father is more powerful than the other) but it is evidently too subtle to impede an attack on Catholics. What do you think we will conclude from such handling, such badgering, such failures of reason?
As to the prayers that begin with "O Saint Philomena, please..." or words to that effect: they generally end with "...through Chrust our Lord."
That's how we understand the process, anyhow. We know very well that Philomena may be a good ol' gal, but she amounts to diddly, spiritually speaking, apart from Jesus Christ Our Lord.
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