Posted on 12/16/2007 4:05:55 PM PST by NYer
Compared to Jesus, she doesn't register.
I'm a Bible Believing Christian...
So you are saying that all women that are not Mary are equal to Britney Spears in morality? Yes someone definitely has a sight problem.
Yes, I agree.
I have many Catholic friends, quit playing the liberal strawman game. Where in the Bible does it say Mary was sinless? That is pure heresy. We are instructed to test, test, test. Jesus Christ has no mother, only the human woman who gave him birth in order to be both God and man. Please again, send me Biblical evidence of Mary being sinless.
Well, that is what mothers do...
Ever heard of the Law of Non-Contradiction? You cannot say Mary participates in the process of salvation, and that Christ did it. It is either One or the other...it can't be both. That is just not logical.
And why do you simply dismiss out of hand what we read in the first two chapters of Luke? You treat Mary as their were no essential difference between her office and that of Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the mother of a prophet, a woman whose conceives late in life to a man dedicated to the proclamation of the Word. Mary is a virgin and the mother of Our Lord . Your view of her represents, to me, a low Christology, and does her no more honor than does the Koran, for whom Jesus is simply the forerunner of Mohammed.
Not according to your posts.
And she hasn't been a virgin for some time now...
And you've proven this how?
Your church encourages people to refrain from praying to God but instead praying to the Mother of Jesus and dead people...
Instead? Where did you come up with that? As for talking to dead people, what the heck was Jesus doing talking to Lazarus in the tomb? Who was Peter talking to when he performed the miracle of resurrection in Acts?
Your focus is not on God, it's on Mary...
Wait - I thought we were too focused on the Eucharist. Now we're too focused on Mary? Which is it?
Jesus is always the little tiny guy in the painting and Mary is larger than life...
LOL!
Mary has no role in the salvation of anyone...Beyond the book of Acts, she's never mentioned again in the scripture...
LOL! The New Testament isn't compiled chronologically or in order of importance. BTW, the Gospel of Luke, which declares that Mary will be called "blessed" by all generations was written by Paul's associate and traveling companion, Luke. It's essentially Paul's Gospel, but don't let that ruin your daydream.
Paul was the apostle to the Gentile church, of which I am a member...Paul never gave Mary, your Queen of Heaven and Mother of God, an ounce of consideration...
See above.
There are two religions that venerate Mary...You guys and the muzzelims...
True. Muslims descend from Adam and Eve, too. That invalidates everyone then?
According to which faith? The one you concocted in your den or the one that began in the Upper Room?
Don't use words like "heresy" unless you know what they mean.
Thus the Immaculate Conception. Her stainless soul was absolutely required.
If you say then that God could have made it possible, then why can you not say that God made it possible for Jesus?
If we're going to discuss "possibilities" we could also state that God could have fashioned His own flesh out of dust like He did with Adam. He didn't need to be "born" into a nuclear family, but He chose to. He chose to have a mother and a foster father and to grow and learn like all of us. Why's that? If Mary isn't worth venerating, she certainly wasn't worth being born through, right?
So, it's okay for God to condescend to us in all our filth and sin, but you won't dare honor His mother? How big of you.
Why? Show me where Jesus said, "write this down".
Jesus Christ gave to John - and by implication, all Christians - His Mother, to be our Spiritual Mother (Jn 19:26-27; cf. Rev 12:1-2,5,17). Thus, we can ask for her prayers on our behalf, which have great efficacy due to her exalted holiness (Jas 5:16) and closeness to our Lord Jesus Christ.
As much as the bible says to, RC interpretations aside.
Luke 1:28
"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, {thou that art} highly favoured, the Lord {is} with thee: blessed {art} thou among women."
The Greek word rendered "highly favoured" here (KJV) and in many translations, is "kecharitomene." Catholic Bibles usually translate it "full of grace," which is permissible, and not merely a biased position. E.g., the Protestant Amplified Bible mentions in a note that "endued with grace" is the "literal translation." W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of N.T. Words, a standard Protestant reference, states that the word means "to make graceful or gracious . . . grace implies more than favour; grace is a free gift, favour may be deserved or gained."
If this be true, the Catholic rendering makes more clear the Catholic position that Mary's Immaculate Conception is entirely unmerited on her part, a sheer act of mercy and grace performed solely by God. "Favour" may imply otherwise. "Kecharitomene," in any event, is derived from the root "charis," whose literal meaning is "grace" (it is translated as "grace" 129 out of 150 times in the KJV). The angel is here, in effect, giving Mary a new name ("full of grace"), as if he were addressing Abraham as "full of faith," or Solomon "full of wisdom" (characteristics which typified them). Throughout the Bible, names were indicative of one's character and essence, all the more so if God renamed a person.
Luke 1:35
"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
This verse explicitly establishes a link between Mary as bearer of the New Covenant and the Ark of the Old Covenant. The Gk. word for "overshadow" ("episkiasei") was used of the bright cloud at the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ (Mt 17:5; Lk 9:34) and is reminiscent of the Shekinah of the OT, which represented God's Presence (Ex 24:15-16; 40:34-8; 1 Ki 8:4-11). Mary became like the Holy of Holies in the Temple, where God dwelt. God gave extremely detailed instructions on constructing the ark, since it was to contain His Law (Ex 25-30 and 35-40). Mary had to be that much more holy, since she was to carry the Word of God in the flesh (Job 14:4). Further parallelism between Mary and the Ark is indicated in comparing Lk 1:43 with 2 Sam 6:9, Lk 1:44 with 2 Sam 6:14-16, and Lk 1:39-45,56 with 2 Sam 6:10-12.
Mary had to be sinless in order to be in such close proximity to God Himself. The whole Bible teaches this (e.g., Ex 3:5; Deut 23:14). God's Presence imparts and requires holiness (1 Cor 3:13-17; 1 Jn 3:3-9). The Jewish high priest entered the Holy of Holies (where the Ark and God's Special Presence were) only once a year, under threat of death if God's instructions were violated (Lev 16:2-4,13). The Ark itself was so holy that only a few were allowed to touch it (Num 4:15; 2 Sam 6:2-7). Thus, Mary, due to her ineffable physical and spiritual relationship with God the Son, the Holy Spirit (as "Spouse"), and God the Father (as "Daughter of Zion"), necessarily had to be granted the grace of sinlessness from conception, just as we all will be cleansed utterly in order to be present with God in heaven (Rev 21:27). Seen in this light, the Immaculate Conception, though still technically a deduction from the Bible, is a very biblical doctrine indeed.
Pelagius got people stirred up before the African entered the lists. I would say Augustine's views generally were more defined by the Donatist conflict than by any supposed Manichianism but also, I think, by his rejection of Plotinus. I think that he saw in Pelagius a reflection of neo-platonism. The Latin Church, in any case, did not affirm Augustine's doctrine in its more extreme form, which one finds in someone like Calvin.
“Pelagius got people stirred up before the African entered the lists. I would say Augustine’s views generally were more defined by the Donatist conflict than by any supposed Manichianism but also, I think, by his rejection of Plotinus. I think that he saw in Pelagius a reflection of neo-platonism.”
Pelagius did stir things up, for sure. In some senses Pelagius was, in his personal life, somewhat holier than thou. Initially, Augustine admired him, which I have always found odd.
I have heard the argument that Augustine’s position on Pelagianism was born of his battles with the Donatists. I don’t agree. The whole doctrine of Original Sin and the utter depravity of man simply reeks of Manichianism. You may well be right about his rejection of Plotinus. I hadn’t thought of that.
“The Latin Church, in any case, did not affirm Augustine’s doctrine in its more extreme form, which one finds in someone like Calvin.”
Thank God!It is unfortunate, however, that what the Latin Church did affirm was so outside the consensus patrum. Augustinianism has had a profound effect on Western Latin theology, let alone what the Protestants might believe. The IC, a “dogma” which lay undiscovered, at least unproclaimed, for 1800 years, is a good example of its effect. You know, R, it has been argued by “real” theologians (as opposed to the likes of me!)that the IC is a Christological heresy because it denies Christ’s humanity.
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