Posted on 02/03/2008 1:07:49 PM PST by Gamecock
ODESSA, Texas (AP) - A man accused of killing his wife says he was trying to exorcise a demon from her when the devil entered his body and caused her to die, according to a police probable cause statement.
Jan David Clark, 60, was arrested Friday after authorities went to his home and found Susan Kay Clark's body wrapped in a bed sheet with a cross and sword on top of it.
Officers had gone to the home after being told that Clark had called a friend and said his 59-year-old wife was dead, said Sgt. Gary Duesler said the Ector County Sheriff's Office.
Clark told investigators he had his wife pinned face down on a carpeted floor when she died.
Clark was charged with murder and remained in the Ector County jail on Sunday in lieu of $300,000 bail.
He had declined to comment at the jail and it was unclear whether he had an attorney to speak for him.
The woman's body was taken to the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's Office for an autopsy.
Taryn Beck said the couple had seemed to be close.
"They were like an old married couple," said Beck, 29, whose late grandfather was married to Susan Clark. "They would just roll their eyes at each other, but I never thought something like this would've happened."
Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fthagn!
A ball of snakes from any perspective. But go ahead. Feel free to disbelieve. Whatever comfort disbelief may afford has an increasingly brief half life.
It doesn't particularly comfort me that Alien abductions, ESP, ghosts, demons, etc. aren't real...I simply prefer reality to fantasy (other than in novels and films, of course).
Thanks Mary.
Rosenfan . . . seems to me you have . . . unwittingly, probably,
CHOSEN to be bitten in the rear by a TYPE II ERROR
while smugly thinking your rear is safe from a TYPE I ERROR.
I don’t find that to be wisdom.
BTW, I’m not interested in fantasies per se, either.
But I have studied the topic for 45+ years and that reasonably fair mindedly.
How long have you studied it closely?
I’ve been interested in skepticism and a rational response to pseudoscience for 25+ years, so I’m not exactly a newbie to the subject.
This preacher Rodney Howard Browne came to NYC to speak at Madison Square Garden for about 22 nights spread over two months. Our church was one of the sponsors and they needed people to staff the event so I volunteered. One evening the pastors right hand man (Steve) came up to me and said, “There’s a demon possessed woman on the floor would you handle it. ??? Oy, well I volunteered.
So I go down to the floor to check her out, she’s behaving, just hanging out. But when the people started to sing she got out this squirt-gun and started to spray the crowd. Then I walk over to her (laughing) and say ‘you can’t be doing this’ so she started to squirt me. At this point I can see there’s more than one person in there! So I put one hand over the water gun and the other gently around her shoulder and I speak to her (not the one animating her) and say something like ‘God loves you’. She stops, puts away the water gun and walks out the exit (Steve’s watching from about 40ft away).
At that point I go NO NO NO I should have gotten her phone number!
Imagine the kingdom of Light and the kingdom of darkness locked in cosmic embrace! As Lou Reed sang, ‘New York City is the place where they said Hey babe, take a walk on the wild side!’ And Lou, if it gets any wilder than that I don’t want to know!
M
INDEED.
Well done.
Then, you must have seen a LOT of hokey-ness in the name of the conventional religion of
“science.’
As for "hokey-ness" in science, I'm not sure what you're driving at. The only criticism I can think of (off-hand) of modern science would be the politicization of the global warming debate.
Pinging post 55 (also don’t miss post 53)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1964344/posts?page=55#55
I tend to agree with your assessment.
If there was demonic possession involved, then we’re probably fortunate to have read this much about it in the press. The little that is described, doesn’t provide much to deduce about the situation.
I agree that theologically, while God the Holy Spirit indwells the body of the believer, there is no chance of demonic possession of the believer. This doesn’t rule out demonic influence, which is likely to be even more acute in the believer when out of fellowship with God from any post salvation sin.
Now a couple of issues arise. He claims the devil entered him and caused her death. It might indeed be the case that he isn’t saved, understands some religious principles, but hasn’t exercised simple faith alone in Christ alone, thereby allowing God in His immutable nature the ability to justly provide grace in the sinner’s life. If not saved, and possessed for a time, he might very truly be reporting the situation.
He might also be confusing our old sin nature, which might be influenced by demonic forces to cause the death of his wife, directly or consequent to his intentions, but still due to the volition of the human killing his wife. Such is not the work of the devil, but is the decision and associated volitional responsibility of that person who committed the crime.
I’m not so sure about the inability of an unsaved person to cast out a demon, because I tend to believe it is the authority of a higher power than that demon which may either force the demon out, or the justifiable threat/risk posed to the demon that a higher authority might cause them greater consequence if they do not remove themselves.
Since all things that were created, were created by the Son, an appeal to God the Father through the Son by faith alone in Him alone might provide a just situation for high authority to intervene into the situation, possibly even taking the demon into Tartarus to be chained until being cast in the Lake of Fire.
Green believers need to be careful in the status they retain. It is true that unlike any other time in human history, each believer has much more power today, because of the indwelling of all three persons of the Godhead. It is also true, that many new believers confuse their recent adoption into the royal family of God as giving the human believer all that power to exercise, even when he is out of fellowship with God.
The Christian life focuses on remaining in fellowship with Him and allowing Him to perform all the work in sanctification and respecting legitimate authority.
The appropriate action, if demonic influence or possession is afoot, is to properly place in His hands. God has no problems, so if we have a problem, give it to God and let Him handle it. Attempting to interfere between God and other creatures, might not only attract the ire of the errant creature, but also His discipline. I call to mind the case of Michael facing Satan who sought the body of Moses when Moses suffered the first death. Michael was careful to respect the proper chain of command, even when in the right.
Science as expressed and organized in our era
HAS
-——————ALL———————
THE ESSENTIAL AND MAIN FEATURES OF A RELIGION.
—just off the top of my head—
—Priesthood
folks don’t get published or hired unless they toe the line on TRADITION *AND* ON TRADITIONAL VIEWS OF REALITY.
—Priesthood gatekeepers to the goodies—money, status, position, awards, IN-GROUP stuff
—RELIGIOUS FERVER
— the list could go on and on.
A fair amount has been written about this—even from a SCIENTIFIC perspective. I’m surprised you haven’t come across such in your vast 25 years of study.
From the American Heritage Dictionary:
re·li·gion Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
How could I have ever missed how prevalent that is in physics, geology, biology, and chemistry?
As for your points: there's a reason science uses peer review. It weeds out studies which don't hold up to scrutiny.
Scientists have religious ferver? Quite the opposite. How many suicide bombers set off their vests shouting "F=MA!"?
"Priesthood gatekeepers to the goodies"? You seem to be critical of the fact that scientific awards, positions, etc. are granted by scientific organizations. Just who do think should hand them out? UFO buffs and psychics?
Again, a reminder...there's no need to yell!
Must disagree with you on that one:
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' - Matt 7:21-23 NASB
I’m curious . . .
In a scientific sort of way . . .
Who told you . . . what evidence do you have . . .
that ALL CAPS in my use of them
EQUALS volume/amplitude in my communications
vs
raised eyebrows; different timbre of voice, a certain look in my eye ???
#######
Your assumptions about my buying into what I see as an idiotic nettiquette CONVENTION are flawed, at best. Of course, you are welcome to assume what you wish and get your dander up over whatever you enjoy getting your dander up over. But it’s not something I’d recommend, scientifically, of course. Cortisol is a dreadful thing to turn loose in the blood stream over such an inconsequential as ALL CAPS.
##############
Your narrative about science leaves me with the conclusion that you
1. haven’t observed much science in our era very closely
or
2. your biases have wholesale blinded you beyond the point of being legally blind.
#############
I don’t care to go into the particulars here. But peer review—especially at university and journal levels has been REPEATEDLY DEMONSTRATED to be a crock of horse biscuits. The party line gets affirmed ad nauseaum and that’s essentially it 99.9% of the time.
Gallileo would have had an easier time with the Roman magicsterical.
The biases and emtoions and pontificating . . . the threats over tenure; grants, publishing . . . are horrendous RELIGIOUS FIGHTS.
This has been documented repeatedly IN SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS. I think there’s even threads about such on FR.
But I doubt you’ll educate yourself in such matters. Biases tend to be sources of comfort—not things folks seek to give up freely and willingly, deliberately.
However, IF it’s scientific TRUTH you seek, the truth is out there. And it’s NOT as you’ve characterized it by a wide margin—certainly not even primarily and for sure not exclusively.
However, IF you construe science to be such a tidy little box, I’m not deluded enough to think my poor words will influence you otherwise.
Cheers.
A Huckster told me today that a vote for Romney was a vote for Satan. Maybe this man hadn’t heard that, yet.
That’s what happened to poor O.J., but his attorneys talked him out of using that as a defense.
Okay, ya got me. Perhaps satan’s house is divided against itself, or he uses this kind of thing to fool people.
I understand an exorcism is going to be tried on Britney Spears this weekend...it’ll probably be televised.
"...it became solely identified with "shouting" or attention-seeking behaviour. As a result, netiquette generally discourages the use of all caps."
To sum up our disagreement: You believe:
You can certainly believe this if you want to, it is a free country after all (except when the aliens in collusion with our government abduct you or a globalist gets you possessed by a demon, of course). Feel free to put on your tinfoil hat and fight the good fight.
In the meantime, I'll be cashing my check from Uncle Sam...you know, the one he sends me for being a skeptic.
I’m not impressed if 99.9999999% of everyone on the net has decided to agree on the convention about ALL CAPS. But, help yourself. Join the masses if that suits your sensibilities, by all means.
Doesn’t mine.
###########
In terms of your summery, my response:
To sum up our disagreement: You believe:
1. People are being abducted by aliens by the millions
Yeah. I think that’s fairly inescapable that millions are being abducted. What is not clear is how much of it is by (A) NWO folks—humans alone; by (B) joint operations and/or by (C) aliens alone. I’ve seen no convincing puzzle pieces allocating percentages on such. Some allegations have surfaced that it’s about half and half between A & C. Time will tell.
2. Aliens have taught our government how to make and operate flying saucers You know this because you have a relative who workED AROUND flying saucers—seeing them at close range on a daily basis. Yes, I’m totally convinced of such. I’ve come ‘coincidentally’ in contact with a number of folks with first hand info as well as read tons and tons of convincing docs IN ADDITION TO MY TRUSTWORTHY RELATIVE. I’d have been a fool over the TYPE II ERROR hazard to have NOT beleved such evidence.
3. Our government kills people to cover this up That’s also inescapable given tons of evidence. Even way back at Roswell, the farmer’s whole family was threatened with death—total erasure from ever having existed.
4. Satanists are in charge of the effort towards globlism
Check out
HTTP://WWW.ENDGAMETHEMOVIE.COM
or the easier link at ATS to view it for free. He’s documented every second many times over from quality sources. And he’s just one producer of one quality summary of such. There are dozens available.
5. Globalists want to get people possessed by demons
Depends on their level. Most have no clue that demons and fallen angels/watchers/nephilium are involved.
Do I suspect that Shrillery Klintoon has participated in a globalist satanic ritual. Yeah, I do. There are persistent reports of such here and there. But it wouldn’t surprise me if that’s several levels above her.
6. Most people who express skepticism about such matters are being paid by the government to do so.
NO! NOT SO. The government doesn’t have to waste money on most such shills. But a few high level ones are employed in some cases on some issues in some contexts.
7. Science is a religion
ABSOLUTELY. The proof of that is all over the place . . . hardly even hidden in plain sight. It’s even been documented in scientific journals.
And I don’t.
#############################
However, assuming you live long enough—which could turn out to be not all THAT long . . .
YOU WILL REMEMBER this list and our relative positions on it . . . as your construction on reality bites the dust in a brief flash of flame as a dust cloud of sawdust might in a forest fire.
Stay tuned.
Your quote: "imho, most skeptics are paid shills for the government or folks who’s religion of science would crash and burn if they admitted something so strange."
That would seem to imply that there are a lot of people being paid, but you've clarified that to say that a few "high level" skeptics are being paid the government to be skeptics. I'm curious...which ones? I particularly like The Amazing Randi and Penn & Teller (I recently saw their show in Vegas, highly recommended!)...are they on the payroll of the Alien Conspiracy?
You said, "However, assuming you live long enough—which could turn out to be not all THAT long . . ."
What will be the method of my demise? Alien abduction (I'll have to remember to go for head shots on the Greys)? Mobbed by a bunch of NASA geeks (they are part of The Conspiracy, after all)? Demonic possession forcing me to shout "Your mother darns socks in Hell!" until I die of exhaustion? Killed by the New World Order to enable their elite to be immortal (as per that Endgame movie you linked to...most amusing!)
For that matter, why haven't you been abducted/liquidated/eliminated, given your knowledge & opposition to The Conspiracy?
C'mon...enquiring minds want to know!
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