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Posted on 02/08/2008 7:25:41 PM PST by 49th
"Tom" Wright is one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought. As Bishop of Durham, he is the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England and a major player in the strife-riven global Anglican Communion; as a much-read theologian and Biblical scholar he has taught at Cambridge and is a hero to conservative Christians worldwide for his 2003 book The Resurrection of the Son of God, which argued forcefully for a literal interpretation of that event.
TIME: At one point you call the common view of heaven a "distortion and serious diminution of Christian hope."
Wright: It really is. I've often heard people say, "I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness.' That's a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional. [...] At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, "Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven." It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation. [...] There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so "paradise" cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state. [...] Yes, you might get disappointment in the case where somebody has recently gone through the death of somebody they love and they are wanting simply to be with them. And I'd say that's understandable. But the end of Revelation describes a marvelous human participation in God's plan.
(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...
Well mentioned. I’m a little surprised the off-the-cuff analysis wasn’t more rigorous, considering it’s rather simple.
For all the Hebrew/Jewish scholarship at the time of the New Testament writing, and including the Aramaic at the incarnation of Jesus Christ, the underworld, as expressed in the Greek was composed of four chambers.
HADES (Greek) also referenced as SHEOL(Hebrew) as being ‘down there’, an underworld, composed of “Abraham’s Bosom” also referenced as Paradise for believers, and as the TORMENTS for unbelievers. Other discernible compartments were TARTARUS, a place where fallen angels are chained/imprisoned till later and the ABYSS where the demon Apollyon is recorded as being kept until the Tribulation.
Whether physical or not, below the earth we touch or perhaps that is how we perceive it, whether it be empirically, rationally, or spiritually, nonetheless the locations are mentioned in Scripture and are therefore very real and truly exist.
We also know that at bodily death, Jesus Christ’s body was taken to the tomb, placed in the grave. His spirit had been relinquished to the Father while Christ was on the Cross by Jesus Christ. His soul departed His body after it ceased bodily functioning.
A gap ensued between when the body went in the tomb and 3 days later, was found to be resurrected by the multiple eyewitness testimonies of physically touching and seeing Jesus Christ alive in the flesh, but a discernibly different body, not to be confused as a ghost, but one that also ate meat, but could walk through walls, travel immense distances in time and space in moments.
We see in Acts and the Gospels and some epistles, that when He resurrected, others also accompanied Him out of the grave, though He was the First Fruits.
He ministered to the spirits in HADES during that interval. This implies really those in Paradise as He told the thief on the Cross He would see him in Paradise that same day. Yet not much is spoken to whether He may have also went into other portions of HADES.
He is God, so nothing could prevail against Him. Nothing would be able to prevent Him going elsewhere, except something which might have been immutable to His nature. So whether he went into the Abyss or the Torments might be arguable, but since Scripture doesn’t say much (that I’ve found) this may be a moot point.
He didn’t have a resurrection body at that time, but from the soulish or spiritual viewpoint, He still resided in that place, so a body of some sort is identified with the person in those places.
Today, after His Resurrection, we now have a different situation. Whereas OT saints still could not ascend to the immediate presence of God in the third heaven, because the real sacrifice had not yet been given, today we know Jesus Christ has ascended even to the third heaven, and seated at the right side of the Father.
We also know that nothing separates the believer from the love of God and that separate from the body we are face to face with the Lord. There does seem to be a body associated with the believer today, after death, but still prior to the Rapture or 2nd Coming which the believer in heaven is associated and recognizable by other saints and even sinners from the stories of Lazarus and the rich man.
Paul reports a person he knew who had visited the third heaven but unable to discern if in body or not.
I report from dreams, that one might indeed be in a place, spoken of in language as being a real physical place, whether a physical or not physical place, not verifiable, but insofar as our soul and spirit is able to discern and discuss it appears quite a real place. But Scripture tells us more in our Lord Christ Jesus as He is the First Fruits.
In addition, there is a good Biblical argument to be made there are different “levels” of Heaven and Hell. To the extent there are different levels of Hell one made not need to be saved to store treasure in Heaven.
You make some good points.
I’ve found one can understand Bible doctrinally, certain aspects of heaven and the future in His Plan, which are trustworthy, but placing them into context with our place today is somewhat extant and discernible.
For example.
I can say I have body and soul and through faith in Christ recognize the Holy Spirit has regenerated my human spirit today, as a I live right now. I can discern that existence and perceptions from what I was when I was also here as a man only with a body and a soul.
Next, I study about my Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, how He had a body, soul, and spirit. I also understand how He expressed Himself indicating a separation of His spirit from His soul and from His body. I understand from Scripture, from multiple eyewitness testimony how He returned in a Resurrection Body, the First Fruits, where He ate meat(fish), could pass through walls, other men prior to their first death could touch His resurrection body, and discerned it from a ghost.
I know academically, three heavens exist, ... The first being the heavens on earth, where birds fly and clouds float by; the third where God resides.
I know from vivid dreams of being in a place in a body, yet my physical body remains on earth, but discernible from mere sleep in that other persons exist with input to my soul and spirit of things I have not had nor will have access to know or perceive otherwise. Yet I know I do not yet have a resurrection body, so perhaps this is a 2nd heaven. This 2nd heaven though also has a earth with similar topology, geography as many places here, which I had never before see, but later visited physically and knew features only from past spiritual perception.
I also know of an OBE, wherein I could perceive physical features in a hospital clinic room, which I had not seen otherwise in bodily person, but as I arose I still had body though not physical.
But whatever these ‘vivid dreams’ or OBE, they are not identical to the ressurrection body.
I also understand that we will face a future judgment by fire, similar to how the Earth underwent a judgment by water in the days of Noah.
I tend to think, that believers will face a testing, communicated as similar to a metal being refined by fire, so the dross is taken away. I suspect this might imply our thinking which is scarred, or not sanctified, which influences and is retained by our souls and or spirits, will be tested and burned up. That process might be identifiable with the issues of Purgatory, although I also agree with arguments indicating Purgatory as a parallel heaven is not Scriptural.
There are also doppelgangers, or our doubles. Perhaps spiritual deception, or perhaps resurrection body, I do not know.
Absolutely correct. God created the earth and said it was “good”. M\an created to replenish the earth. Nowhere does scripture, whether infallible or not, whether Hebrew or Greek mention we are to leave.
Yeah, but after the fall in the Garden, all of Creation groaned and continues to look forward to the New Heaven and New Earth. Just a good number of millenia in between and where we fit at any one time varies with His plan for us.
Jesus Said MY CHURCH.... whenever did he give a counter Command to found a New Church!Never!
The Catholic Church is Jesus Church the Bishops are his present day Apostles..
The "Fall" is an interpretation that fits you brand of theology. Which is fine for you but I don't happen to believe because of one sin entropy exists in the universe. Creation was termed by God "good". I believe it was "good" back then and its still "good" now.
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If you will read the whole article, I think you will find the teachings have been “told before”.
What do you think?
If you’d like to read intertestimental descriptions of 8 levels of heaven and chasms of the underworld (hell)as one of them was described by Jesus being “Abrahams Bosom”, the 1st and 2nd books of Enoch describe all that stuff. I really don’t buy into it but it seems you’re interested. I’m sure its where Dante got most of his ideas.
Science based upon rationalism has places for application, but is woefully insufficient to explain all of Creation. The consequences of limiting one’s place to only science is quickly followed by erring into believing it is a viable substitute for His Plan.
Yeah. That's why Jesus said,
"Thou art Peter, and upon the rock of thy faith --- not you, per se, nothing personal --- I will build My Church; and as for me actually changing your name to "Rock," --- just kidding, Simon, old boy."
Heaven and Hell: What Does the Bible Really Teach?
Christianity has been limping along on tradition alone for centuries. It's about time it begins to return to it's biblical roots.
The doctrine of resurrection is ancient, biblical and a foundational aspect of Christianity:
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
The doctrine of the immortal soul is also ancient, but IS NOT biblical.
You might want to refer to this thread
But he said, "In the Gospels"...Apparently his bible ends at the last Gospel...
Some of the big Early Church Fathers made that statement too, Hootowl, but the Roman Catholic church just cherry picks out what little snippets of verse and writings by the ECF's that support their theology.
You can read more about it here in a great essay by William Webster.
Adam and Eve and a few million people in places such as N. Korea or Somalia may not agree with you...
In their initial time of creation, there was no sickness...No death...No pain...They did not have to work for food and shelter...They didn't even know what evil was...
To interpret the Bible is like putting word in Our Lord and Saviors mouth, A word to the wise, looking for meaning comes through prayer, conjecture could mean changing God’s “Precious Word”, that a person like this is changing the meanings in the Bible.
Revelation, Any one who changes the “THE WORD” of the Bible is written out of The Book of Life.
I for one believe in The Bible as the Living “WORD”, and This article is not fact, it’s interpretation.
Paradise to me was outlined earlier in the Bible, earlier than the Crucification, Pope Paul’s interpretation is as follows:
“Heaven as the fullness of communion with God was the theme of the Holy Father’s catechizes at the General Audience of 21 July 1999. Heaven “is neither an abstraction not a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit,” the Pope said”.
My feeling when I read the Bible is that time and space will be void once I die to this existence, and I will be shown the next step by Our Lord and Savior as long as I have asked Him into my life and followed His Sacred Rules all the days preceding my rebirth event through His Holiness.
Have a Blessed Day!
This view on paradise not being heaven is exactly what I believe. How refreshing.
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