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(Anglican) Bishop: Christians don't go to heaven
WorldNetDaily ^ | 2/10/08 | WorldNetDaily

Posted on 02/10/2008 1:46:46 PM PST by wagglebee

A bishop described as "one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought" is now challenging the widely held belief that Christians go to heaven when they die.

N.T. "Tom" Wright, the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England who has been praised for his staunch defense of the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ, has published a new book in which he says people do not ascend to God's dwelling place. Instead, God will be coming back to Earth.

"Never at any point do the Gospels or Paul say Jesus has been raised, therefore we are we are all going to heaven," Wright told Time Magazine. "I've often heard people say, 'I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness.' That's a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional."

(Excerpt) Read more at worldnetdaily.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: anglican; coe; europeanchristians; fv; heaven; heresy; npp; resurrection; theology; tomwright
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Unbelievable!
1 posted on 02/10/2008 1:46:50 PM PST by wagglebee
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To: Huber; newheart; sionnsar; NYer; Coleus; narses; Salvation; Pyro7480; tutstar; WKB; ...

General Christianity Ping.

We’re coming up on Easter, so Time magazine has found a bishop to say that Christians don’t actually go to Heaven.


2 posted on 02/10/2008 1:49:12 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

I’m going to be extra careful not to die just yet. I want to make sure this stuff is all resolved by the time I’m ready to pass.


3 posted on 02/10/2008 1:53:20 PM PST by jdm (You must have cookies enabled to log-in.)
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To: wagglebee
Where did they find the Anglican Church Leaders? England?

/s

4 posted on 02/10/2008 1:57:54 PM PST by Red_Devil 232 (VietVet - USMC All Ready On The Right? All Ready On The Left? All Ready On The Firing Line!)
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To: ahadams2; Tennessee Nana; QBFimi; Tailback; MBWilliams; showme_the_Glory; blue-duncan; ...
I'd be real careful when it comes to N.T. Wright.

Thanks to wagglebee for the ping.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams.

FReepmail Huber or sionnsar if you want on or off this moderately high-volume ping list (sometimes 3-9 pings/day).
This list is pinged by Huber and sionnsar.

Resource for Traditional Anglicans: http://trad-anglican.faithweb.com
Humor: The Anglican Blue

Speak the truth in love. Eph 4:15

5 posted on 02/10/2008 2:13:56 PM PST by sionnsar (trad-anglican.faithweb.com |Iran Azadi| 5yst3m 0wn3d - it's N0t Y0ur5 (SONY) | UN: Useless Nations)
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To: wagglebee

Not that I claim to be any Christian theologian, but it’s always been my impression that in Christianity, the dead sleep until they are resurrected on the day of judgement to either go to Heaven or to Hell....

Isn’t that what he is saying?


6 posted on 02/10/2008 2:18:32 PM PST by thundrey
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To: wagglebee

Next thing they’ll be saying is that we get the 72 virgins.


7 posted on 02/10/2008 2:19:34 PM PST by neodad (USS Vincennes (CG 49) "Checkmate Cruiser")
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To: wagglebee
"Never at any point do the Gospels or Paul say Jesus has been raised, therefore we are we are all going to heaven," Wright told Time Magazine.

You would think that he would have read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. It seemed to me like all 4 accounts mentioned that Jesus was resurrected. Of course, he's the 4th most senior cleric in the Church of England so what do I know?

8 posted on 02/10/2008 2:21:24 PM PST by xJones (Mohammed (police be upon him))
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To: jdm
"I’m going to be extra careful not to die just yet. I want to make sure this stuff is all resolved by the time I’m ready to pass"

LOL!!!

9 posted on 02/10/2008 2:21:25 PM PST by T Minus Four (Acts 8:37)
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To: thundrey; All
it’s always been my impression that in Christianity, the dead sleep until they are resurrected on the day of judgement to either go to Heaven or to Hell....

39 And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil. 42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
-- Luke 23:39-43

10 posted on 02/10/2008 2:26:48 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: xJones

His wording is a little confusing. He does acknowledge the Resurrection; however, he dismisses the idea that we also go to Heaven.

However, to accept his premise as legitimate, this also means that nobody goes to Hell.


11 posted on 02/10/2008 2:29:13 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: thundrey
“,,,Isn’t that what he is saying?”

Yes. There was a post on FR (I think it was FR) several days ago on this topic and the entire interview was posted. He joined everything he said with Scriptural notation and was right on target. These excerpts today are misleading.

12 posted on 02/10/2008 2:32:48 PM PST by elpadre
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To: thundrey
“,,,Isn’t that what he is saying?”

Yes. There was a post on FR (I think it was FR) several days ago on this topic and the entire interview was posted. He joined everything he said with Scriptural notation and was right on target. These excerpts today are misleading.

13 posted on 02/10/2008 2:32:57 PM PST by elpadre
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To: xJones

“never ...therefore we are we are all going to heaven”

read it again


14 posted on 02/10/2008 2:37:00 PM PST by elpadre
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To: wagglebee; sionnsar

“Unbelievable!”

Not at all. In fact it is quite patristic.

“However, to accept his premise as legitimate, this also means that nobody goes to Hell.”

No, again, not at all. That’s Originism and its not at all what Bishop Wright is speaking of. Orthodoxy does not teach of people going to some “place” called heaven, it speaks of theosis. As for Hell, well, maybe its a place or maybe it isn’t, but the damned suffer eternal torment by being scourged by the fire of God’s Love. I don;t think the locale of the torment is particularly important, though maybe the Western mind, attuned to such notions by various artistic works and Augustinian theology need it.

Bishop Wright is hardly my favorite Western theologian, but I might just buy this book.


15 posted on 02/10/2008 2:40:49 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

Read the passage from Luke that I posted in #10. What is the “Paradise” that the robber would be with the Lord if not Heaven?


16 posted on 02/10/2008 2:44:11 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

“What is the “Paradise” that the robber would be with the Lord if not Heaven?”

Probably the “Bossom of Abraham”, the place of the dead, the bonds of which Christ shattered when “Hell took a body, and discovered God.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see.”


17 posted on 02/10/2008 2:50:01 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: wagglebee
We’re coming up on Easter, so Time magazine has found a bishop to say that Christians don’t actually go to Heaven.

The usual Easter message is for some apostate bishop, theologian, or cleric to say "we don't know if Jesus rose bodily from the dead", so this is a bit of novelty for once...

18 posted on 02/10/2008 2:50:41 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time." - Amos 5:13)
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To: elpadre
He joined everything he said with Scriptural notation and was right on target. These excerpts today are misleading.

That's what I figured.

19 posted on 02/10/2008 2:52:53 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Political zombies need brains, but they hunger only for taxes." ~ NicknamedBob)
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To: Alex Murphy
this is a bit of novelty for once...

Good point!

20 posted on 02/10/2008 2:53:55 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
1. World Nut Doily

2. Context is lacking (see #1)

21 posted on 02/10/2008 3:01:45 PM PST by r9etb
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To: elpadre
These excerpts today are misleading.

It's WND ... what'd you expect?

22 posted on 02/10/2008 3:02:58 PM PST by r9etb
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To: wagglebee

Wright and his followers have caused much mischief among the Reformed churches. Recently, the PCA considered expelling an entire presbytery over error caught from Wright. (The matter may have been resolved when the ringleader resigned from the denomination and took his church to another body where such error is tolerated).

It will be interesting to see how far down the path he leads folks.


23 posted on 02/10/2008 3:30:23 PM PST by PAR35
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To: wagglebee; sionnsar; Huber
he dismisses the idea that we also go to Heaven.

Actually, in all fairness, he dismisses the idea that we all go to heaven, which has become a popular notion. In that respect he is correct. Do the Anglicans recognize Purgatory?

24 posted on 02/10/2008 3:47:40 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: wagglebee
Echoing Sionnsar, Kolokotronis and others, Wright is both a serious and orthodox theologian. This is NOT another case of left wing Anglican apostasy.
25 posted on 02/10/2008 3:50:06 PM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: Tax-chick; elpadre

Here it is:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1967478/posts


26 posted on 02/10/2008 3:56:51 PM PST by Inyo-Mono (If you don't want people to get your goat, don't tell them where it's tied.)
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To: NYer; sionnsar

Most Anglicans do not recognize purgatory, although within the Anglican Catholic Church many do.


27 posted on 02/10/2008 4:06:00 PM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: NYer
However, Purgatory has ALWAYS been a temporary state and there has never been a suggestion that one remains There until the Last Judgment.
28 posted on 02/10/2008 4:06:59 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
“What is the “Paradise” that the robber would be with the Lord if not Heaven?”

Here’s the answer to your question. All saints prior to Jesus’s resurrection were placed in “Paradise”. Nobody was permitted in heaven before Jesus. That’s why He said “Paradise” instead of “Heaven”. Paradise was separated from hell by a large chasm.

29 posted on 02/10/2008 4:10:34 PM PST by bigcat32
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To: wagglebee

Right, so if everyone is dispatched to the relevent eternal place of abode as soon as they die, what is the day of Judgement all about?


30 posted on 02/10/2008 4:18:19 PM PST by thundrey
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To: bigcat32; sionnsar; Huber; NYer

You all raise some excellent points; however, the fact remains that (leaving aside any debates about Purgatory) it has NEVER been taught by the Catholics, Protestants or Orthodox that saved Christians would be denied entrance to Heaven prior to the Second Coming or Last Judgment.


31 posted on 02/10/2008 4:21:44 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Huber
Most Anglicans do not recognize purgatory

Do you suppose this was factored in to his message?

32 posted on 02/10/2008 4:23:55 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: sionnsar

Thanks for the PING...

I’m going to Heaven when I die...

But you dont have to call me a Christian...

Jesus told me to be a Believer...


33 posted on 02/10/2008 4:28:00 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Huber

Most Anglicans do not recognize purgatory, although within the Anglican Catholic Church many do.
_____________________________________________

I was brought up in a High Anglican Church...

But we were never taught that purgatory was real...

I always understood it to be a Roman Catholic belief, only...


34 posted on 02/10/2008 4:31:46 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Inyo-Mono

Thanks for the link. His actual statements are very much what I’d expected, as opposed to what the extracts attempted to convery.


35 posted on 02/10/2008 4:41:32 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Political zombies need brains, but they hunger only for taxes." ~ NicknamedBob)
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To: wagglebee

“The fact remains that (leaving aside any debates about Purgatory) it has NEVER been taught by the Catholics, Protestants or Orthodox that saved Christians would be denied entrance to Heaven prior to the Second Coming or Last Judgment.”

I go by The Bible. The death/resurrection of Jesus is 100% payment for my sins. To say I won’t go to heaven would be calling God a liar. To say that I will spend time in a “Purgatory” would be saying that His death/resurrection is not 100% payment. His death and resurrection is 100% PAYMENT. This is hard to believe for many people.


36 posted on 02/10/2008 4:51:12 PM PST by bigcat32
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To: wagglebee
that saved Christians would be denied entrance to Heaven prior to the Second Coming or Last Judgment.

If you read the Bishop's complete comments, you'll see that he says that those who are saved will be in the Presence of God from the time of their deaths. He's simply saying that this is not the "Heaven" commonly visualized in popular culture.

He then emphasizes the ultimate End of Time, the return of Jesus in glory, the resurrection of the living and the dead (the reunion of souls with bodies) and the New Heavens and New Earth restored through Christ.

37 posted on 02/10/2008 4:55:31 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Political zombies need brains, but they hunger only for taxes." ~ NicknamedBob)
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To: bigcat32

I’m not interested in getting into a debate on the subject of Purgatory on this thread because I don’t believe that is what the bishop was talking about.

That being said, I am in agreement that saved Christians are in Heaven today and not awaiting the Second Coming or Last Judgment beforehand.


38 posted on 02/10/2008 4:55:32 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Tax-chick

I may have to get the book and read it.


39 posted on 02/10/2008 4:56:27 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

I’m prepared to be dubious about statements of a Church of England Bishop :-), but in this case, I didn’t find much in the interview to disagree with. His statements are Scriptural: “The souls of the righteous” (putting aside all arguments over who those “righteous” are) will be with God. However, the existence of the disembodied soul in God’s Presence isn’t the end. There will be the final Judgment, the Resurrection of all, and the re-created Heavens and Earth - not just “Heaven.”


40 posted on 02/10/2008 5:01:47 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Political zombies need brains, but they hunger only for taxes." ~ NicknamedBob)
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To: Tennessee Nana

Most protestants rejected the belief along with seven sacraments, etc., however given that the reformation came after scholastic theology, some remnants remained within some of the protestant and via media traditions.


41 posted on 02/10/2008 5:02:26 PM PST by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: wagglebee

“That being said, I am in agreement that saved Christians are in Heaven today and not awaiting the Second Coming or Last Judgment beforehand.”

I agree. In my studies I’m persuaded that the regenerate spirits of Christians are in heaven awaiting the physical resurrection of their glorified bodies. Since Jesus’s resurrection Christians are ushered into Heaven instead of Paradise. The person in this article is simply wrong about the Gospels and teaching of Paul. Most who read the NT can confirm this obvious error.


42 posted on 02/10/2008 5:11:10 PM PST by bigcat32
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To: neodad
Next thing they’ll be saying is that we get the 72 virgins.

Maybe. Did you see this thread?

You can see some of the reaction here.

43 posted on 02/10/2008 5:11:41 PM PST by HoosierHawk
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To: thundrey; bigcat32; wagglebee; Alex Murphy

I think you are right, and I think Wright is right.

I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is pretty clear as to what happens to the dead in Christ now and in the future (when Christ comes again).

Further, Paul specifically says that this is “...by way of the Lord...”. That, I would think, if you believe in Scripture, is a rather solid seal of endorsement that this is the way it is.

As to the thief on the Cross...it could be that this was a special case, reserved for him and him alone...I think Christ would have the right to do that, don’t you?

Alex...Wright is a firm believer in the Resurrection, that’s why I’m always skeptical when people post religious items from WND, especially from that great theologian, Joseph Farah.


44 posted on 02/10/2008 5:27:27 PM PST by norge
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To: bigcat32
“... His death and resurrection is 100% PAYMENT..”

true and He has chosen you and me, but we must choose Him by accepting Him and His promises and striving to live a Christ-like life. Our entry into the next life is really up to each one of us. It is not automatic.

45 posted on 02/10/2008 5:41:01 PM PST by elpadre
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To: Huber

“..Most Anglicans do not recognize purgatory...”

If anyone in the Anglican Church accepts the 39 Articles, they don’t go along with the doctrine of purgatory. (Article XXII, dated 1801)


46 posted on 02/10/2008 5:47:55 PM PST by elpadre
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To: elpadre

Yes.


47 posted on 02/10/2008 5:58:02 PM PST by bigcat32
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To: wagglebee

Welcome to England, muslims! Feel free to take over; the Christians aren’t what they used to be over there.


48 posted on 02/10/2008 6:17:39 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Cloverfield 2008! Why vote for a lesser monster?)
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To: wagglebee

In point of fact, the teaching of the ancient and undivided Church, still preserved by the Orthodox, even if forgotten by Western Christians, is that the souls of those who are saved go to Paradise (as Christ told the penitent thief he would), not to Heaven (or properly any one of the Heavens), or, if they have unrepented sins, temporarily to Hades (which is a place of confinment only, not of punishment), either until the General Resurrection and the Last Judgement, or until the prayers of the Church move God’s mercy to send their guardian angel to lead them to Paradise.

The Anglican bishop’s emphasis on the General Resurrection is quite correct. Christ said “I am the Resurrection”, not “I am the transmigration of souls”.
Likewise the Holy Apostle Paul speaks at length of being raised in glorious bodies, not of disembodied souls migrating to the presence of God. Indeed the only Scriptural indication of souls awaiting Our Lord’s Second and Glorious Advent in Heaven itself, is the description of the souls of the martyrs crying out from under the altar in the Revelation to St. John.


49 posted on 02/10/2008 6:39:53 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: xJones

I think it’s the conclusion of ‘we are all going to heaven’ that he is disputing, not Christ’s Resurrection (though one can never tell with Anglican clerics).


50 posted on 02/10/2008 6:41:36 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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