ROMAN CATHOLICISM: A DIFFERENT GOSPEL

Apprising Ministries ^ | January 16, 2008 | Ken Silva

[Marysecretary]

If one follows Jesus Himself, that’s one thing. If they follow the one true church, they may not always make it. It’s Christ who is our salvation. None other. But you knew that.

[Marysecretary]

Yes, we are born with a sinful nature, but the knowledge of that sin is not in an infant. God doesn’t assign an unbaptized infant to hell just because your church says so. He says to suffer the little children to come unto HIM. That doesn’t sound like he’s ready to throw them into hell to me.

[Marysecretary]

Could you tell me what scripture that is. I don’t remember it. But, he had God’s purpose for Him so that could be true.

[Marysecretary]

We don’t baptize infants but we do have a dedication service where parents and the congregation agree to help raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. We take that very seriously. Later, when they are old enough to receive Christ into their lives, they are immersed in a lake nearby. It’s meaningful to them and to those of us who are there.

[Marysecretary]

I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He has already saved me. I don’t have to wonder and worry if God’s grace has left me because I sinned. I only have to confess my sin to Him and He is faithful to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. God’s looking for relationship, not religious dogma.

[Marysecretary]

Thanks, Godzilla. I appreciate you. Mxxx

[wmfights]

WM: I hope that those who disagree understand I am not arguing against Baptism or the Lord’s Supper. I am saying they do not confer the Grace of God. They do not trigger the Holy Spirit indwelling a believer and they are not absolute requirements to be saved.”

PM:Respectfully, I will have to agree to disagree.

Romans 6:1-4 seems to point out this well:

Thanks for taking the time to try and understand the distinction and to make your point.

I think if you look at Acts 10:44-47 and especially Acts 11:15-17 you will see the Holy Spirit descend upon believers prior to baptism and in Acts 15:7-11 that God gave the Holy Spirit because they believed The Gospel not being baptized.

Acts 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall baptize with the Holy Spirit."

Do we believe The Gospel, or do we believe that the sacrifice at Calvary only opened the possibility of salvation and there are a lot of works and practices that must be performed in order to get the Grace of God that saves our souls? If its the latter a sacramental system that imparts Grace makes sense. I don't believe that is what Scripture tells us.

Roms.10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

[Marysecretary]

You have the freedom to believe what you want, even if it’s wrong, Tas. I am not trying to force you to believe anything. That’s YOUR choice.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for those glorious Scriptures! And thank you for your encouragements, dear sister in Christ!

[wmfights]

Mercifully, we have Christ's promise that the child of a believing parent is most likely among God's family since it is God who gives us our children.

Great point Dr.E.!

Let me throw the wrench in the works. ;-0

Did the faithful Jews of the old covenant believe their male children were members of God's family and entitled to the covenant promises according to circumcision?

Apparently this is what infant baptism has replaced. As parents our greatest concerns are about our children. It would be natural for us to want to insure their salvation, but the truth is it's not in our hands. It's in God's hands.

[wmfights]

It’s Christ who is our salvation. None other

Keep shouting it from the mountain tops sister. I'm listening.

[Quix]

silverlings gave it to you here:

Yes, John the baby was filled with the HS.
Luke 1:15

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

At #421

LUB

[wmfights]

We don’t baptize infants but we do have a dedication service where parents and the congregation agree to help raise them in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

We do the same. I really don't disagree with the infant baptism if it's being done as a public means of bringing the child into a Christian church and community. I draw the line where it's thought to be imparting saving Grace.

Later, when they are old enough to receive Christ into their lives, they are immersed in a lake nearby.

We have a large baptismal pool and believers are baptized at the start of the service and they offer their personal testimonies. It can be very moving. I think we forget how being baptized early in the church's history marked an individual for possible persecution. It really was an act of Faith and trust in the Lord.

[markomalley]

How do you know they are passed on accurately?

Glad you asked. First of all, we can read the testimony written by the prophets and apostles in the scriptures:

• John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
• John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
• Matt 10:20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
• Isa 35:8 And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Holy Way; the unclean shall not pass over it, and fools shall not err therein.
• Matt 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
• 1 Tim 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

The early Church fathers also affirmed this. For example:

• Ignatius, in around 105 AD, wrote the following: For this end did the Lord allow the ointment to be poured upon His head, John 12:7 that He might breathe immortality into His Church. (Letter to the Ephesians, 17)
• Iraneus, in about 180 AD, wrote the following: But [it has, on the other hand, been shown], that the preaching of the Church is everywhere consistent, and continues in an even course, and receives testimony from the prophets, the apostles, and all the disciples—as I have proved— through [those in] the beginning, the middle, and the end, and through the entire dispensation of God, and that well-grounded system which tends to man's salvation, namely, our faith; which, having been received from the Church, we do preserve, and which always, by the Spirit of God, renewing its youth, as if it were some precious deposit in an excellent vessel, causes the vessel itself containing it to renew its youth also. For this gift of God has been entrusted to the Church, as breath was to the first created man, for this purpose, that all the members receiving it may be vivified; and the [means of] communion with Christ has been distributed throughout it, that is, the Holy Spirit, the earnest of incorruption, the means of confirming our faith, and the ladder of ascent to God. "For in the Church," it is said, "God has set apostles, prophets, teachers," (1 Corinthians 12:28) and all the other means through which the Spirit works; of which all those are not partakers who do not join themselves to the Church, but defraud themselves of life through their perverse opinions and infamous behaviour. For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church, and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth. Those, therefore, who do not partake of Him, are neither nourished into life from the mother's breasts, nor do they enjoy that most limpid fountain which issues from the body of Christ; but they dig for themselves broken cisterns out of earthly trenches, and drink putrid water out of the mire, fleeing from the faith of the Church lest they be convicted; and rejecting the Spirit, that they may not be instructed. (Adv. Haer. 3.24.1)
• A couple of decades later, Hippolytus write the following: But we who hope for the Son of God are persecuted and trodden down by those unbelievers. For the wings of the vessels are the churches; and the sea is the world, in which the Church is set, like a ship tossed in the deep, but not destroyed; for she has with her the skilled Pilot, Christ. And she bears in her midst also the trophy (which is erected) over death; for she carries with her the cross of the Lord. For her prow is the east, and her stern is the west, and her hold is the south, and her tillers are the two Testaments; and the ropes that stretch around her are the love of Christ, which binds the Church; and the net which she bears with her is the layer of the regeneration which renews the believing, whence too are these glories. As the wind the Spirit from heaven is present, by whom those who believe are sealed: she has also anchors of iron accompanying her, viz., the holy commandments of Christ Himself, which are strong as iron. She has also mariners on the right and on the left, assessors like the holy angels, by whom the Church is always governed and defended. The ladder in her leading up to the sailyard is an emblem of the passion of Christ, which brings the faithful to the ascent of heaven. And the top-sails aloft upon the yard are the company of prophets, martyrs, and apostles, who have entered into their rest in the kingdom of Christ. (Christ and Antichrist, 59)

There is plenty more, but the bottom line is that Christ promised it. If His Church is in error on a matter of dogma, then Christ lied. If He lied about that, how can we count on anything to be true?

[phatus maximus]

I think if you look at Acts 10:44-47 and especially Acts 11:15-17 you will see the Holy Spirit descend upon believers prior to baptism and in Acts 15:7-11 that God gave the Holy Spirit because they believed The Gospel not being baptized.

Respectfully...I have not made that distinction nor do I deny the Holy Spirit can descend upon those who confess prior to Baptism. That is not what we are talking about, however. We are discussing infant baptism. Do you deny the Holy Spirit can descend upon those baptized prior to confessing their belief? If so, I dare say that perspective quite limits the authority and power of the Holy Spirit and I for one will not go there.

Blessings.

[hosepipe]

[ So maybe in the interim you could develop your thought, please? ]

Am Considering whether I want to get into that much detail..
When so many base concepts are overlooked.. (un-developed)
You know, by us, together..

[phatus maximus]

Respectfully.

Whether we have knowledge of that sin or not is not relevant. If we are sinful, we are sinful, period. We don’t have to be conscious of our sin to have committed it, do you agree? If an infant is not “sinful” at what point do they become sinful...1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8? By that theory we make ourselves sinful at some point by becoming “aware” of our sin which I dare say sounds quite like an eastern orient religion type thought. Read Paul and then tell me what his perspective is on our sinful nature. He’s quite clear and it’s not pretty for us.

Secondly. I NEVER said that God throws an unbaptized infant into hell (because my church says so - which is so far from the truth - FYI I’m not RCC by the way which I assume you think I am). We have no doctrine on the souls of the unbaptized infants because we do not know, it is God’s will what happens with the unbaptized infant (and frankly all souls). I pray that God’s mercy will be given to all unbaptized infants, but since I don’t have a pipeline to God’s mind I can’t say one way or the other - Can you?

[wmfights]

Do you deny the Holy Spirit can descend upon those baptized prior to confessing their belief?

No. I think any public profession of Faith, or act such as baptism, is done after a completed act.

We are discussing infant baptism.

The difference here is the individual being baptized is making no decision to do so, or any pronouncement of Faith. In addition it is being claimed that the actual act is imparting Grace. In the adult application the Holy Spirit has already indwelt the believer and the believer has a desire to be baptized and no claim of Grace being imparted by the act is made.

It really goes back to do you believe that believing The Gospel is sufficient for salvation, or is something more required? IOW an ordinance versus a sacrament.

[phatus maximus]

It really goes back to do you believe that believing The Gospel is sufficient for salvation, or is something more required? IOW an ordinance versus a sacrament.

Bear in mind The Gospel instructs us to be baptized and I for one will not deny my child this when s/he is born. I see we are at an impass and with that I will bid you all well. It is clear we do not agree nor will we and since the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a new result I’m going to heed to that definition and move on so I keep my sanity, at least for one more day ;-).

Blessings to you all in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

PM

[BibChr]

But you read it, and still don’t understand his issues with the core doctrines of Rome, and why he tries to point Roman Catholics to Christ and the Gospel? That’s what you said: you can’t for the life of you understand why someone would do what he does. You don’t think he answers that question?