Posted on 02/28/2008 6:25:40 AM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Just for starters on your post —
To whom are the prayers addressed to during the Mass?
Only one prayer is addressed someone — who is that?
LoL.. we're talking a very old book transcribed into html scripts and text.. that MANY people have a copy of at home.. Its NOT THE SITES opinion.. Grasshopper..
Amusing that this is precisely what Joseph Smith claimed and that most evangelicals hate Mormonism as much as they do Catholicism. IMHO, that is because Mormonism offers a reductio ad absurdum argument against sectarian evangelicalism.
I understand from discussions on these threads how much value RC's place in the writings of their "church fathers", but your probably the first that has intimated that they might not be totally infallible. When looking at "church fathers" you have to bear in mind that the writings are being done by individuals with and agenda. Also, you have to remember that those whose writings were found to be at variance with the goals of the dominant church of the time were systematically destroyed.
For example we know very little about the Christian Churches that existed outside of the Eastern Church, or Western Church control because once they became large they were systematically destroyed and all their writings as well.
I love seeing Scripture as our reference.
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. – Matthew 6:7-15
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63
And we ask Him to judge us exactly as we judge others.
The Church is the body of Christ, by Church meaning all the baptized. You seem to reject the very concept of hierarchy which to me seems implicit in the Bible. At minimum we have the teachers and we have the taught; those who teach the truth and those who teach falsehood. Not all are equal in their possesion of the truth.
I asked about the prayers, specifically during the Mass. And yes, if you have ever been to a Catholic Mass, you know that we say the “Our Father.”
You still have not answered my question — and it does cancel against your previous premise.
To whom are all but one prayer during the Mass addressed?
PS. If your answers are to me alone, why to you ping the entire army?
Since you pinged me, you must have already read my post #50, which is where I came into the discussion. Would you care to elaborate on how doctrines only 500 years old are what Christ intended, while doctrines clearly traceable (especially through the Early Fathers' expositions and sermons on Scripture and Tradition) all the way back to the Apostolic Age are "self-evidently" not of His will?
Indeed, just as Jesus identified the persecutors of His Church as those who would persecute Him, so too, if the Church is identifiable with Christ, and is the "pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1Timothy 3:15), those who resist the Church's authentic teaching are no less persecutors of Christ. Certainly this is so at least at the point when they are aware of the suspicion that those doctrines are, in fact, correct,and they fail nevrtheless to embrace them. They are, in the same deliberate action, failing to embrace Christ! Even when a person denies authentic doctrine with absolutely no malice, under an invincible ignorance concerning them, he or she is still objectively in error, and thwarts the proper establishment of the Kingdom. That God might not hold such truly ignorant people at fault is hardly consolation to them after their deaths, when they find out the true impact of their "well-intentioned" actions.
Good point!
“...you will see that any unbiased timeline will point to the RCC as the beginning Church.”
al_c, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church indeed was established by Christ at Pentecost. Until 1053 the Church of Rome was not only in communion with, but indeed was the first see of that Church. Sadly, on account of papal pretensions to universal immediate jurisdiction and the adoption of innovative theologies in contradiction to the dogmatic pronouncements of the Ecumenical Councils, the Church of Rome went into schism from the other Patriarchates of The Church. The Church of Rome itself further fractured at the time of the Protestant Revolution. The Eastern Patriarchates meanwhile preserved The faith inviolate and thus were never subjected to the upheavals of an internal schism on anything like the scale the Roman Church experienced in the 16th century.
Happily, since the papacy of +Paul VI, Rome has made great gestures of reconciliation with the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches which have resulted in the hope filled dialogs in Belgrade and Ravenna. I suggest, however, that the sort of Latin triumphalism your posts have suggested only reinforce the opinions of Orthodox hierarchs, monastics and laity who are aopposed to even discussions with the Roman Church let alone a reunion.
That's interesting. I happen to be reading Miller's Church History, I see it reference from time to time so I thought it might be good to look at, and on pg 380 came across a note about a man named Clement who was condemned at the synod of Soissons in March 744. He was condemned because he held to the belief that "no councils, writings, decisions of the church that are contrary to Scripture had authority over Christians".
Here is a case of a man being condemned 800 years before the date you believe Sola Scriptura emerged. The point being that belief in the 5 Solas has always been around, it's just that at various times it conflicted with the goals of the dominant church of the era.
It must be the site's opinion since they posted it on their website. Further, just because it was published and old doesn't necessarly make it factual, only supportive of the website's views. So, back to square one - do you believe everything you read on the internet?
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"Happily" indeed! It is a welcome advance for many of us.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. – John 17:20-23
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. – Revelation 13:8
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - Ephesians 1:4
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. – Ephesians 5:25-32
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. – John 8:58
To God be the glory, not man!
And, even if you could provide a sect as evidence, you must also be able to demonstrate continuity of this doctrine back to the beginning. After all, the Arians were hardly few in number at one point, but they have a discrete point of origin on the Christian timeline. On the basis of their assertions, minus their continuity, would you be willing to assume their unique doctrinal bases were correct? Would your objection be based, in part, at least, on the non-Apostolic origin of their ideas concerning Christ's divinity?
Just so!
As a Catholic I must correct this. I would include Eastern Orthodox in this statement.
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