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ROMAN CATHOLICISM: A DIFFERENT GOSPEL
Apprising Ministries ^ | January 16, 2008 | Ken Silva

Posted on 02/28/2008 6:25:40 AM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg

ROMAN CATHOLICISM: A DIFFERENT GOSPEL

In their lust for unity the Emergent Church and post-evangelical “Protestants” are right now embracing the Roman Catholic Church as another Christian denomination. But the issue is simple: If, as taught the Church of Rome, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without “the new birth in baptism” then we are now in hopeless contradiction with the Gospel contained in Holy Scripture.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8)

Speaking The Truth In Love

Let me make this as clear as I possibly can for the Roman Catholics who may read this work in Christ from Apprising Ministries. I personally am former member of the Church of Rome and care very deeply about those, such as the majority of my own family line, who are trapped in this apostate man-made system of religion known as Roman Catholicism. I also fully realize that what I say may sound “unloving” and possibly even “harsh.” However, there is just nothing that I can do about that. By not telling the Truth we aren’t doing anyone a service.

(Excerpt) Read more at apprising.org ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholicbashing; culturalsuicide; emergent; gnostic; gospel; itsfuntobeabigot; letsbashcatholics
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To: Alamo-Girl

Just for starters on your post —

To whom are the prayers addressed to during the Mass?

Only one prayer is addressed someone — who is that?


61 posted on 02/28/2008 9:41:15 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Godzilla
[ And you believe everything you find on the internet too? ]

LoL.. we're talking a very old book transcribed into html scripts and text.. that MANY people have a copy of at home.. Its NOT THE SITES opinion.. Grasshopper..

62 posted on 02/28/2008 9:42:19 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: magisterium
It is impossible that Jesus Christ would create a Church, endow it with an inerrant Scripture, and then leave that Church to disintegrate into "apostasy" barely a minute after the Last Apostle drew his last breath.

Amusing that this is precisely what Joseph Smith claimed and that most evangelicals hate Mormonism as much as they do Catholicism. IMHO, that is because Mormonism offers a reductio ad absurdum argument against sectarian evangelicalism.

63 posted on 02/28/2008 9:45:06 AM PST by RobbyS
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To: Claud; hosepipe
Of course I understand that these sources are not infallible as Scripture is. But there seems to be a rather bad tendency in some quarters of Christianity to ignore them entirely, as if they didn't matter whatsoever.

I understand from discussions on these threads how much value RC's place in the writings of their "church fathers", but your probably the first that has intimated that they might not be totally infallible. When looking at "church fathers" you have to bear in mind that the writings are being done by individuals with and agenda. Also, you have to remember that those whose writings were found to be at variance with the goals of the dominant church of the time were systematically destroyed.

For example we know very little about the Christian Churches that existed outside of the Eastern Church, or Western Church control because once they became large they were systematically destroyed and all their writings as well.

64 posted on 02/28/2008 9:46:24 AM PST by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Wonderful post.

I love seeing Scripture as our reference.

65 posted on 02/28/2008 9:49:39 AM PST by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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To: Salvation; hosepipe; Manfred the Wonder Dawg; wmfights; magisterium
Jesus Christ taught us all how to pray:

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. – Matthew 6:7-15

It is not a self-serving prayer, therefore it is not a "vain" repetition. Jesus Christ is the bread of life.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. – John 6:35

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

When we speak (or think) the Lord’s Prayer, we align ourselves to His Name, His will, His kingdom and we ask for His continual indwelling (bread of life) and protection for all of us.

And we ask Him to judge us exactly as we judge others.

Pray without ceasing. - I Thessalonians 5:17

Praise God!!!

66 posted on 02/28/2008 9:51:49 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

The Church is the body of Christ, by Church meaning all the baptized. You seem to reject the very concept of hierarchy which to me seems implicit in the Bible. At minimum we have the teachers and we have the taught; those who teach the truth and those who teach falsehood. Not all are equal in their possesion of the truth.


67 posted on 02/28/2008 9:53:07 AM PST by RobbyS
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To: wmfights
Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!
68 posted on 02/28/2008 9:54:28 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

I asked about the prayers, specifically during the Mass. And yes, if you have ever been to a Catholic Mass, you know that we say the “Our Father.”

You still have not answered my question — and it does cancel against your previous premise.

To whom are all but one prayer during the Mass addressed?

PS. If your answers are to me alone, why to you ping the entire army?


69 posted on 02/28/2008 9:55:10 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Alamo-Girl
God is the Light. Indeed, you ar correct. But He identifies Himself with the Church He established. He said to Saul of Tarsus: "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" Did Saul persecute Christ directly? No. Jesus had ascended to Heaven years before. Saul was persecuting the Church, yet Jesus equates that to the persecution of Himself directly!

Since you pinged me, you must have already read my post #50, which is where I came into the discussion. Would you care to elaborate on how doctrines only 500 years old are what Christ intended, while doctrines clearly traceable (especially through the Early Fathers' expositions and sermons on Scripture and Tradition) all the way back to the Apostolic Age are "self-evidently" not of His will?

Indeed, just as Jesus identified the persecutors of His Church as those who would persecute Him, so too, if the Church is identifiable with Christ, and is the "pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1Timothy 3:15), those who resist the Church's authentic teaching are no less persecutors of Christ. Certainly this is so at least at the point when they are aware of the suspicion that those doctrines are, in fact, correct,and they fail nevrtheless to embrace them. They are, in the same deliberate action, failing to embrace Christ! Even when a person denies authentic doctrine with absolutely no malice, under an invincible ignorance concerning them, he or she is still objectively in error, and thwarts the proper establishment of the Kingdom. That God might not hold such truly ignorant people at fault is hardly consolation to them after their deaths, when they find out the true impact of their "well-intentioned" actions.

70 posted on 02/28/2008 9:55:22 AM PST by magisterium
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To: RobbyS

Good point!


71 posted on 02/28/2008 9:57:09 AM PST by magisterium
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To: al_c

“...you will see that any unbiased timeline will point to the RCC as the beginning Church.”

al_c, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church indeed was established by Christ at Pentecost. Until 1053 the Church of Rome was not only in communion with, but indeed was the first see of that Church. Sadly, on account of papal pretensions to universal immediate jurisdiction and the adoption of innovative theologies in contradiction to the dogmatic pronouncements of the Ecumenical Councils, the Church of Rome went into schism from the other Patriarchates of The Church. The Church of Rome itself further fractured at the time of the Protestant Revolution. The Eastern Patriarchates meanwhile preserved The faith inviolate and thus were never subjected to the upheavals of an internal schism on anything like the scale the Roman Church experienced in the 16th century.

Happily, since the papacy of +Paul VI, Rome has made great gestures of reconciliation with the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches which have resulted in the hope filled dialogs in Belgrade and Ravenna. I suggest, however, that the sort of Latin triumphalism your posts have suggested only reinforce the opinions of Orthodox hierarchs, monastics and laity who are aopposed to even discussions with the Roman Church let alone a reunion.


72 posted on 02/28/2008 9:57:23 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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Comment #73 Removed by Moderator

To: magisterium; hosepipe
As they are commonly understood today? Yes. Especially Sola Scriptura, which denies the authority of Sacred Tradition,...

That's interesting. I happen to be reading Miller's Church History, I see it reference from time to time so I thought it might be good to look at, and on pg 380 came across a note about a man named Clement who was condemned at the synod of Soissons in March 744. He was condemned because he held to the belief that "no councils, writings, decisions of the church that are contrary to Scripture had authority over Christians".

Here is a case of a man being condemned 800 years before the date you believe Sola Scriptura emerged. The point being that belief in the 5 Solas has always been around, it's just that at various times it conflicted with the goals of the dominant church of the era.

74 posted on 02/28/2008 9:59:19 AM PST by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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To: hosepipe
LoL.. we're talking a very old book transcribed into html scripts and text.. that MANY people have a copy of at home.. Its NOT THE SITES opinion.. Grasshopper..

It must be the site's opinion since they posted it on their website. Further, just because it was published and old doesn't necessarly make it factual, only supportive of the website's views. So, back to square one - do you believe everything you read on the internet?

75 posted on 02/28/2008 10:00:11 AM PST by Godzilla (My ancestors were humans. Sorry to hear about yours.)
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To: Kolokotronis
Happily, since the papacy of +Paul VI, Rome has made great gestures of reconciliation with the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches which have resulted in the hope filled dialogs in Belgrade and Ravenna.

******************

"Happily" indeed! It is a welcome advance for many of us.

76 posted on 02/28/2008 10:03:05 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Kolokotronis
For sake of argument, and to not muddy the waters so much for the sake of our truly separated brethren, let's say this is a "perspective" thing! The real issue here is that the author claims that the Catholic Gospel is radically different from what he considers to be the "pure" one. To that extent, it can be surmised that he would also intend to lump in the Orthodox position, too. It is expedient for both lungs of apostolic succession to be united in this one, no?
77 posted on 02/28/2008 10:04:21 AM PST by magisterium
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To: RobbyS; Salvation; hosepipe; Manfred the Wonder Dawg; wmfights; magisterium
The body of Christ consists of all those chosen from the foundation of the world for redemption by the blood of the Lamb, regardless of when the person was, is or will be in the flesh.

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. – I John 4:9

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. – John 17:20-23

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. – Revelation 13:8

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - Ephesians 1:4

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. – Ephesians 5:25-32

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. – John 8:58

Therefore, I do not engage in disputes over “when” the body of Christ began.

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. – 2 Timothy 2:23

Revelation 5 is also illuminating concerning the blood of the Lamb.

To God be the glory, not man!

78 posted on 02/28/2008 10:12:22 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: wmfights
Provide a timeline, please, that involves the opinions of bodies of Christians, as opposed to a few scattered individuals over a 2000 year history. That there have always been a few cranks about this doctrine (or any other) I do not deny. But you will be hard-pressed to find a body of people who held to what equates to Sola Scriptura until the 16th Century. And that is the point.

And, even if you could provide a sect as evidence, you must also be able to demonstrate continuity of this doctrine back to the beginning. After all, the Arians were hardly few in number at one point, but they have a discrete point of origin on the Christian timeline. On the basis of their assertions, minus their continuity, would you be willing to assume their unique doctrinal bases were correct? Would your objection be based, in part, at least, on the non-Apostolic origin of their ideas concerning Christ's divinity?

Just so!

79 posted on 02/28/2008 10:12:41 AM PST by magisterium
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To: al_c

As a Catholic I must correct this. I would include Eastern Orthodox in this statement.


80 posted on 02/28/2008 10:18:29 AM PST by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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