ROMAN CATHOLICISM: A DIFFERENT GOSPEL

Apprising Ministries ^ | January 16, 2008 | Ken Silva

[Claud]

The RCC(club) became solid or chartered about 313A.D.

Really? And where might we find this little historical "fact"?

I've read some of the Christian writings from before, during, and after that time (Eusebius, etc.) Funny how I don't seem to recall anything about it.

[hosepipe]

[ Really? And where might we find this little historical “fact”? ]

http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/ebooks/millers/toc.htm

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

Strangely, I just posted something on another thread which is applicable here as a reply to your post. Here it is:

Each Christian has been given gifts of the Spirit to serve the whole body of Christ. It is wrong-headed to say that one gift is more important than another. And it is wrong-headed for one to try and do something other than that which God has gifted him and called him to do.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?

But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

And if they were all one member, where [were] the body? But now [are they] many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness. For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:

That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

[Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. – I Corinthians 12:12-31

And of course the next chapter is on love!

Have you ever heard a preacher who did not have the gift of preaching? He does more harm than good.

The same holds for any person, council or assembly that holds itself to be the head of the body of Christ, the church. Christ is the head of the church. So when any one or any thing tries to be the head of the body of Christ, the result is more harm than good.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

Christ alone is the head of the body of which I am but a member and I shall not submit to another head, which is to say, any of the doctrines and traditions of men:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. – Colossians 2:16—23

That said, I do not judge those who do submit to the doctrines and traditions of men. Sanctification is a walk.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. – I Corinthians 3:1-7

To God be the glory!

[al_c]

1AD-36?	Life of Jesus Christ
1AD	First year in Christian calendar (a.d. = anno Domini) (see 525), Augustus
	(Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus) is emperor of Rome
6	Herod Archelaus deposed by Augustus; Samaria, Judea and Idumea annexed as
	province Iudaea under direct Roman administration, cap. Caesarea
6-?	Quirinius: Legate (Governor) of Syria, 1st Roman tax census of Iudaea
6-9	Coponius: Roman Prefect of Iudaea (Samaria, Judea, and Idumea)
7-26	Brief period of peace, free of revolt and bloodshed in Iudaea & Galilee
9-12?	M. Ambivius: Roman Prefect of Iudaea (Samaria, Judea, and Idumea)
12?-15	Annius Rufus: Roman Prefect of Iudaea (Samaria, Judea, and Idumea)
14-37	Tiberius I emperor of Rome, b. 42BC
25?	Assumption (Testament) of Moses, original Hebrew extant Latin (Apocrypha)
26-36	Pontius Pilate: Roman Prefect of Iudaea (Samaria, Judea, and Idumea)
27-29?	John the Baptist begins ministry (Luke 3,1-2) (15th year of Tiberius)
27-34?	Jesus baptized by John the Baptist (Mk1:4-11)
33-34?	John the Baptist arrested and killed by Herod Antipas (Luke 3,19-20)
33-36?	Jesus' ministry
36?	Jesus crucified, Friday, Nisan 14th, March 30th, [Ref: John, Unauthorized
	Version/Fox] Last Supper would have been Thursday evening. (7Apr30 &
	3Apr33 possible Fri/14/Nisan crucifixion dates)
36?-65?	Period of oral tradition in Christianity between the time of Jesus and the time
	the first gospel (Mark) is written, original Christians disperse throughout
	Judea and Samaria (Acts 8,1ff), Peter leads the new Christian Church,
	moves the Church headquarters to Rome

36?-67	Period Peter leads the new Christian Church, moves the church headquarters
	from Jerusalem to Rome
36?-37	Paul of Tarsus has Stephen martyred and the Jerusalem church destroyed
37	Paul of Tarsus is converted (Acts 9)
37-41	Gaius Caligula emperor of Rome, declared himself god
37-41?	Marullus: Roman Prefect of Iudaea (Samaria, Judea, and Idumea)
40	Paul goes to Jerusalem to consult with Peter (Gal 1, 18-20)
41-54	Claudius emperor of Rome, killed by poisoning by his wife Agrippina
44	James, brother of John, executed by Herod Agrippa I (Acts 12, 1-3)
47-48	Paul and Barnabas on Cyprus (Acts 13, 4-12)
48-49	Council of Jerusalem, 1st Christian Council, doctrine regarding circumcision
	and dietary law is agreed to by apostles and presbyters, written in a letter
	addressed to "the brothers of Gentile origin in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia"
	(Acts 15)
48-57?	Paul writes Galations
49-50	Paul in Corinth (Acts 18)
50?	Peshitta translation begun, Hebrew OT->Syriac Aramaic, (Greek NT in 400)
50?	Ascension of Isaiah, original written in Hebrew (Ethiopic Bible)
51-52	Paul writes 1 Thes
51-52	Paul writes 2 Thes
53-62	Paul writes Phil
54-68	Nero emperor of Rome
56	Paul writes 1 Corin
57	Paul writes Romans
57	Paul writes 2 Corin
57	Paul's last visit to Jerusalem [Acts21]
58	Paul arrested, imprisoned in Caesarea [Acts25:4]
59	Nero kills his mother, Agrippina
60	Paul imprisoned in Rome (Acts 28,16)
61-63?	Paul? writes Ephesians
61-63	Paul writes Philemon
61-63	Paul writes Colossians
61-63?	Paul? writes 1,2 Timothy, Titus, known as "pastoral epistles"
62?	James written by leader of Jerusalem community? (Gal 2,9?), "catholic"
	epistle
62	Paul martyred for treason in Rome
62	{Being therefore this kind of person [i.e., a heartless Sadducee], Ananus,
	thinking that he had a favorable opportunity because Festus had died and
	Albinus was still on his way, called a meeting [literally, "sanhedrin"] of
	judges and brought into it the brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah,
	James by name, and some others. He made the accusation that they had
	transgressed the law, and he handed them over to be stoned.}
	[JA20.9.1,Marginal Jew,p.57]
62	Nero kills his wife Octavia and marries Poppaea Sabina
64	Great fire of Rome, started by Nero and blamed on Christians, {Therefore to
	squelch the rumor , Nero
	created scapegoats and subjected to the most refined tortures those whom
	the common people called "Christians," [a group] hated for their abominable
	crimes. Their name comes from Christ, who, during the reign of Tiberius, had
	been executed by the procurator Pontius Pilate. Suppressed for the moment,
	the deadly superstition broke out again, not only in Judea, the land which
	originated this evil, but also in the city of Rome, where all sorts of
	horrendous and shameful practices from every part of the world converge
	and are fervently cultivated.} [Tacitus Annals 15.44;Marginal
	Jew;Meier;p.89-90]
64-95?	1 Peter written in Rome, by Peter the apostle?, "catholic" epistle

65-125	Period in which 4 Gospels, Acts, Revelations, and remaining epistles written
	- Peter martyred before 1st Holy Gospel is written, 7 Popes before last
	epistle is completed
65?	Q written, (German:Quelle, meaning "source") a hypothetical Greek text used
	in writing of Matthew and Luke
65-150	Didache: Instructions of the Apostles written
65-150	Dialogue of the Savior, Gospel of Peter

------

snip

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Just a basic beginning timeline of the history of the Church. Only one Church follows this timeline ... the one, holy Catholic, Apostolic Church. If you'd like to see the entire timeline, I found this one here. Also, if you'd check other historical timelines of Christianity, you will see that any unbiased timeline will point to the RCC as the beginning Church. You can also look at the timeline of popes throughout history and see the unending connections.

[al_c]

The Tribulation Network? I’m sure that’s a very reliable source on all things Catholic. /sarc.

[DogwoodSouth]

As far as you continued insistance on the erroneous claim that “the Catholic Church” (or, I guess you’d say, “club”?!?) became “chartered” in 313, I’ll have to respectfully disagree on the basis of those pesky little things called facts (a tough pill to swallow, I’m sure).

In that year (313) the joint Roman emperors Constantine and Licinius issued the so-called Edict of Milan that proclaimed religious toleration throughout the whole the Empire. That’s the kiddie history 101 version. Actually, edicts of religious toleration had already been issued incrementally throughout the divided Empire: for Gaul, Spain and Britain by Constantine in 306; for Italy and North Africa by Maxentius in the same year; and for the Balkans by the Galerius and Licinius in 311. The letter of 313 (often called the Edict of Milan) was circulated among the Roman governors of the East and did nothing more than to proclaim the Roman government’s neutrality regarding the practice of religion.

So, I am confused as to how, exactly, this date would be chosen and set up as being the point at which, in your words, “The RCC(club) became solid or chartered.”

As to your claim that “There is only one church from the beginning”, it may startle you to know that the Catholic Church would totally agree with you on that point. For your edification, here’s the “official” Catholic teaching on the matter (from 2000’s “DOMINUS IESUS”: ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH):

16. The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15-16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27), which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18). And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single “whole Christ”. This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9).

Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church”. Furthermore, the promises of the Lord that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20) and that he would guide her by his Spirit (cf. Jn 16:13) mean, according to Catholic faith, that the unicity and the unity of the Church — like everything that belongs to the Church’s integrity — will never be lacking.

The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: “This is the single Church of Christ... which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as ‘the pillar and mainstay of the truth’ (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”. With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”, that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church. But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church. Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”. In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”. “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.

[Claud]

Personally, I think the branch theory is getting into dangerous waters.

The Church was indeed one at the beginning and is still one now. However, the fact that said Church has never seen fit to rebaptize heretics and schismatics (assuming validity of course), is a direct and rather incontrovertible indication that said persons were in fact somehow joined to the Church—at least to some hard-to-define degree.

Degrees of communion is the way that some theologians are speaking about it now—perhaps that is the most appropriate way to define the relationship. *shrug*

One can’t understand “Outside the Church there is no salvation” without grappling with this crucial matter of the validity of heretical/schismatic Baptism.

[Claud]

Ah, so Mr. Miller writing in the 1800s. Any specific passage of his you want me to comment on?

Meanwhile, let’s think about this logically here. Where does a historian like Miller get his information? From historians that went before him. And where do they get the information? From even earlier historians.

These are what we call secondary sources.

So let’s just cut right to the chase and go to the primary sources, which are the sources that *every* historian relies on to make these conclusions, because in many cases they were the people who were actually there.

Eusebius, for example, know Constantine personally. So I think he’s got a little more weight to his opinion than Mr. Miller writing 1500 years later.

So I say again, where might we find this little historical “fact” in the primary sources?

[DogwoodSouth]

I don’t mean to be misleading in bringing up “the branch theory.” I simply mean, by my post, to point out that these four groups (the Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian) all have a valid claim to apostolic origins. The Catholic Church totally agrees with this assertion.

As I said, the reasons for (and the degrees of) any and all apparent divisions between the four is not what I was attempting to break down. I simply was pointing out that all of these four groups validly claims apostolic origins. As a Catholic, I, of course, believe the Catholic Church to be the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic” Church in her fullness. Such a belief does not preclude the apostolic origins of these separated brethren, the “other lung” (in the words of Pope John Paul the Great) of Christ’s Church.

[hosepipe]

[ As to your claim that “There is only one church from the beginning”, it may startle you to know that the Catholic Church would totally agree with you on that point. ]

I know.. but they are wrong and right at the same time.. some roman catholics are in the church but the roman catholic church is not the church.. its a club.. or maybe even a cult.. Some practices are fully as weird as Scientology.. or Mormonism.. Thats not even speaking of the local ultra-weirdnesses around the world in various places, like all over South America.. Its a very wierd club..

[Uri’el-2012]

36?-67 Period Peter leads the new Christian Church, moves the church headquarters from Jerusalem to Rome

Do you have some scripture to support that ?

[Claud]

I totally understand what you were trying to say, and didn’t disagree at all with your premise. I just thought that the terminology might be confusing people.

Carry on! :)

[al_c]

Hey, XeniaSt ... long time no chat. See again the timeline and notice how the church was already in place before all of what we now consider scripture was even written. Also read some of Paul’s letters urging Christians to follow the teachings passed down in both written form and in tradition.

[hosepipe]

[ The Tribulation Network? I’m sure that’s a very reliable source on all things Catholic. ]

Things catholic?...
Its simply a site that carrys Millers Church History in HTML form..

Most things (roman)catholic are wierd.. not all but most..
I mean scientology wierd..

[DogwoodSouth]

“Some practices are fully as weird as Scientology.. or Mormonism.. Thats not even speaking of the local ultra-weirdnesses around the world in various places, like all over South America.. Its a very wierd club”

I would have to say that a Christian who compares the “practices” of the Catholic Church to those of Mormonism or Scientology is somewhat amusing considering the fact that such groups (i.e. Mormonism and Scientology) are simply the naturaly fruits of the same rupture in the Church which produced your particular group - they are like a rotted apple which fell to the ground and curses the tree.

[Salvation]

Should that title read:

ROMAN CATHOLICISM: THE TRUE (AND FIRST) GOSPEL?

[al_c]

Its simply a site that carrys Millers Church History in HTML form..

Millers Church History.

Most things (roman)catholic are wierd.. not all but most.. I mean scientology wierd..

That's your opinion.

[Salvation]

**but to expose false teaching to the light of Truth.**

fyi, this is Catholic Bashing, because the Catholic Church is the Light of Truth. Otherwise, why would we have all the conversions that are taking place? (And increasing, btw, yearly?)

[hosepipe]

[ That's your opinion. ]

True..

[Salvation]

Good timeline. One that most Protestants choose to ignore.