Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

A Purim Lesson in Standing up to Evil
The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews ^ | March 20, 2008 | Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein

Posted on 03/20/2008 2:40:13 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012

Dear Friend of Israel,

Tomorrow an important Jewish holiday and an important Christian holiday
coincide. As Christians solemnly observe Good Friday - and anticipate
Easter, the most joyous day in the Christian year - Jews will be
celebrating Purim, which begins tonight at sundown.

(Excerpt) Read more at ifcj.org ...


TOPICS: Judaism; Other Christian; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: evil; purim

1 posted on 03/20/2008 2:40:13 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Buggman; DouglasKC; Diego1618; Chris DeWeese

ping


2 posted on 03/20/2008 2:55:22 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: XeniaSt

Thanks for the ping....my FRiend. I’ve always enjoyed the Book of Esther. Haman also reminds me of quite a few folks I have run into! LOL


3 posted on 03/20/2008 4:58:59 PM PDT by Diego1618
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: XeniaSt
As Christians solemnly observe Good Friday - and anticipate Easter, the most joyous day in the Christian year - Jews will be celebrating Purim, which begins tonight at sundown.

Which one will you celebrate?

4 posted on 03/20/2008 5:09:35 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe
As Christians solemnly observe Good Friday - and anticipate Easter, the most joyous day in the Christian year - Jews will be celebrating Purim, which begins tonight at sundown.

Which one will you celebrate?

The one which is called out in the Holy Word of Elohim, of cause.
NAsbU Joshua 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve YHvH,
choose for yourselves today whom you will serve:
whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River,
or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living;

but as for me and my house, we will serve YHvH."
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua
5 posted on 03/20/2008 5:24:25 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: XeniaSt; P-Marlowe
There's actually a certain irony in Purim and Good Friday coinciding this year, considering that most of the "plot" of the book of Esther takes place on and immediately following Passover.

Happy Purim, and happy Easter to those of my Sunday brethren who are so eager to celebrate the Resurrection that you're doing it a month early this year. ;^)

7 posted on 03/21/2008 5:52:27 AM PDT by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Buggman
Happy Purim, and happy Easter to those of my Sunday brethren who are so eager to celebrate the Resurrection that you're doing it a month early this year. ;^)

I don't pick date on which the holiday falls, I just celebrate it.

I choose to celebrate the death and resurrection of Christ with my fellow Christians on the day that most Christians have chosen to celebrate it. That is FELLOWSHIP! Some might choose to separate themselves from the rest of the flock in order to make a point. I choose not to.

I would have no qualms about celebrating it again a month from now with your congregation. However some of the Messianic Christians I have seen on this forum would categorically REFUSE to celebrate the Ressurrection of Jesus at all and instead would only celebrate the shadow (The passover feast) without celebrating the fact that the need for the passover ended on the day that Christ rose from the grave. The passover was competed. Jesus cried "IT IS FINISHED".

8 posted on 03/21/2008 6:06:56 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe
You did note the winking smiley, right?

I'm giving you a hard time friend-to-friend, for crying out loud. Since when did Neeners have to be deadly serious about everything? That's the GRPL's job.

(Ducking into shelter before the storm of angry denunciations from the GRPL.)

Look, Marlowe, my parents still celebrate Easter. I went to my dad's Passion play last night. I think you're technically wrong about the dating, in part because of running on a solar year rather than a lunar one--and, frankly, in part because Constantine didn't want to have to do anything with the Jews. But I no more break fellowship with you about it than I break fellowship with my own father and mother.

Do you consider our fellowship to be strained just because I'm celebrating Purim this weekend and Passover next month?

Now as far as the Resurrection goes, we celebrate the Resurrection Day as HaBikkurim, the Feast of Firstfruits, when Yeshua rose as the firstfruits of the Resurrected dead (per 1Co. 15). It actually is important to us, for it serves as the down-payment on our own Resurrection, shows that God accepted the sacrifice (Isa. 53:10ff), and fulfills the types of Isaac, Joseph, and Jonah.

But if we seem to place more emphasis on the "shadow" of Passover, it is because without the sacrifice of our Passover Lamb, without His blood on the doorposts of our hearts, we would still be in bondage to the world and subject to the judgment of death. The Resurrection is dependent on the Sacrifice, not the other way around, and therefore the Sacrifice must be honored as God commanded us to honor it: "For as often as you eat this bread (the Passover matzah) and drink this cup (the wine of Passover; specifically, the Cup of Redemption which is served after the meal, cf. Luke 22:20), you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes" (1Co. 11:26).

I realize that your interpretation of those passages is different. That's fine. What I'm trying to get you to understand is why the Lord's Feasts are so important to us: In every single element, even those elements which are traditional only, we see our Lord proclaimed. And thus we keep them, not in substitution of the true Lord, but because we love Him so much that we love even the long shadow that He casts and delight to walk in that shadow.

And if, in our enthusiasm to share the things that the Lord has revealed to us and to share the joy that we have found in His commandments concerning the Appointed Times that He has set we seem a bit pushy, remember that the world sees you as being just as pushy in your enthusiasm to share the joy of the Lord that those Times point to, and be forgiving and gracious with us.

One final thing: Don't make the mistake of thinking that all Messianics are somehow united. There are a great many differences between myself and Xenia and Diego in terms of belief and practice--and in terms of diplomacy and relationship with our Sunday brethren as well. If you have a problem with them, take it up with them. Please don't take it out on me.

Your brother in Yeshua,
Mike

9 posted on 03/21/2008 7:22:07 AM PDT by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Buggman
FWIW, I have no doubt that if invited, you would gladly attend my church's Easter service. However, in the last week there has been a lot of seeming fellowship between some Messianic Christians (whom I consider my brothers in Christ) and Herbert Armstrong followers and Jehovah's witnesses and other Trinity Deniers on the issue of the celebration of our Lord's crucifixion and resurrection.

I came out of my chair when one poster, whom I had some respect for before, came out and basically accused Sunday Worshipers of denying Christ. He got a lot of kudos from Trinity deniers on that point. Even though I am a laid back Neener, I will not stand for that. In my opinion that person appears to have more fellowship with Jews (who actively deny Christ) than Christians who worship (on Sunday) at the foot of the cross.

I do not number you among that group. However you seem to be in the minority among the Messianics. I'm not sure if that other Messianic's attitude is a reflection of the entire Messianic movement or not. If it is, then I'm against it. If the Messianic movement is merely a calling to which God has called you and other like minded dedicated Christians, then God bless you in your pursuit.

10 posted on 03/21/2008 8:04:29 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe
I came out of my chair when one poster, whom I had some respect for before, came out and basically accused Sunday Worshipers of denying Christ.

You need to go back to that thread and read the conversation I had with him after you left; he was actually defending Messiah's Deity in a tongue-in-cheek way, but did so in a way that was widely misunderstood. He was responding to the pastor in the article who said that Christ never commanded us to keep the Sabbath. Xenia was saying, in effect, "So you don't think that the Christ who walked among us is the same Being who gave us the Sabbath in the first place?"

I understood his point; I also understood why it was misunderstood, which is why I asked him to retract the statement and apologize--not because his original statement was wrong, but because it was taken wrong. Unfortunately, hackles were already raised, everyone was convinced that everyone else was wrong, and nobody was really listening at that point. The fact that I was basically out sick for a day kept me from doing anything more than what I did.

My problem with Xenia at the moment is that he isn't willing to apologize for the inadvertent offense he caused with a poorly-worded statement (however right I think his real point was) in order to make peace.

However you seem to be in the minority among the Messianics. I'm not sure if that other Messianic's attitude is a reflection of the entire Messianic movement or not.

*sigh* One of the persistent problems that we see among Messianics is that a newfound zeal for the Torah can make our members a bit impatient with those that haven't "seen the light," so to speak. It is a common pattern for a new Messianic/Hebrew Roots person to go through a period of legalism before mellowing out and realizing that an awareness of the Torah makes us more reliant on Grace, not less, and therefore how can we show less than grace to those we disagree with?

Some, unfortunately, do fall away into one of the less savory Messianic groups out there. A few fall into Orthodox Judaism, and wind up denying the Messiah who was the whole reason they got into this in the first place. (I'm watching it happen with a young lady who used to be part of our synagogue now.)

In my case, my close ties with my traditionally Evangelical parents and their continual support in my calling probably helped in keeping me relatively balanced on the issues of Torah and grace. So did the warm support I've gotten from the Neeners as I've dealt with GRPL accusations of heresy, especially during those first few years when I was still feeling this whole thing out. Those who get resistance or rejection from their families and friends tend to go through it worse.

If the Messianic movement is merely a calling to which God has called you and other like minded dedicated Christians, then God bless you in your pursuit.

Make no mistake; I do believe that the Torah is for everyone, and in particular I would that the Church had never substituted days of its own for God's Appointed Times, for I feel that for two millennia we threw away a great blessing. I'm also dead-set against pressuring Jews to assimilate into Gentile Christianity. "You know Jesus now? Congratulations! Here, have a ham sandwich." Forcing Jews to Gentilize is as great a sin as forcing Gentiles to Judaize, and we need to recognize and repent of that.

And it is precisely because I am against forcing one to change his native culture and ethnicity for salvation and/or fellowship that I am against breaking fellowship with my Sunday brethren. Ultimately, we serve the same Lord, and the disagreements we have over the interpretation of certain passages in the New Testament pales in comparison to the enmity we face together in the world.

Thank you as always for your love and support, my friend. God bless, and shalom.

11 posted on 03/21/2008 9:54:01 AM PDT by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Buggman
And it is precisely because I am against forcing one to change his native culture and ethnicity for salvation and/or fellowship that I am against breaking fellowship with my Sunday brethren. Ultimately, we serve the same Lord, and the disagreements we have over the interpretation of certain passages in the New Testament pales in comparison to the enmity we face together in the world.

I most heartily agree with you.

Have a Blessed Purim and a joyous Easter.

He is Risen.

12 posted on 03/21/2008 4:58:58 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Buggman
My problem with Xenia at the moment is that he isn't willing to apologize for the inadvertent offense he caused with a poorly-worded statement (however right I think his real point was) in order to make peace.

Thanks for the ping while you were talking behind my back.

I have yet to understand the inadvertent offense.

Can you bring clarity to this supposed offense.

b'SHEM Yah'shua
13 posted on 03/21/2008 11:05:56 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: XeniaSt
I've said nothing to Marlowe that I haven't said to your face (so to speak) Xenia, so this can hardly be classified "talking behind your back"--any more than not pinging Marlowe to our continued conversation on the other thread was talking behind his back.

I have made several observations about the general trend in a Messianic's growth and about some of the pitfalls that our group faces; I very pointedly did not refer to anyone in particular by name in that segment, because I was not trying to single you out--and the fact that I also mentioned those who go into Orthodox Judaism, which neither you nor Diego are likely to do, should tell you that I wasn't referring directly to you.

However, if you feel that I've been duplicitous in my dealings here or that I've misrepresented you or anyone else, I apologize for what I have done to lead to that impression.

The fact is that I'm finding both of you to be stiff-necked at the moment, and I'm trying on both ends to make you see the other's POV. You considered my call for taking steps to reconcile on the other thread and determined that it did not fit with the spirit within you. When a person decides that the Spirit has told them something, there's really no more room for discourse, so I let it drop.

In Marlowe's case, since he has not claimed Spiritual authority for his actions, but was open to continued discussion, I continued discussing the matter with him and smoothing things over with him. Why? Because he is my friend, has been for many years, and has defended me against those of our Sunday brethren who have accused me of heresy for my walk in the past. There is absolutely zero reason outside of pride to offend such a friend and brother into enmity towards our camp by careless words--and if you are going to do so, refusing to even back up and say, "Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you and that wasn't what I meant; here's what I meant to say . . ." then you are outright refusing to be a good ambassador for the Gospel and the Torah.

I will not help anyone build back up the walls between us. My calling is to tear them down.

Shalom.

14 posted on 03/24/2008 6:50:14 AM PDT by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Buggman; P-Marlowe

PM>I came out of my chair when one poster, whom I had some respect for before, came out and basically accused Sunday Worshipers of denying Christ.

B>You need to go back to that thread and read the conversation I had with him after you left; he was actually defending Messiah's Deity in a tongue-in-cheek way, but did so in a way that was widely misunderstood. He was responding to the pastor in the article who said that Christ never commanded us to keep the Sabbath. Xenia was saying, in effect, "So you don't think that the Christ who walked among us is the same Being who gave us the Sabbath in the first place?" ................ I will not help anyone build back up the walls between us. My calling is to tear them down.

Thanks for the ping while both of you were talking behind my back.

Sorry; I have yet to understand the inadvertent offense.

I would like to bring some clarity to this supposed offense.

There is only One G-d.

Jesus said so in Peter's Gospel known as Mark

He gave us the Shabbat in Genesis.
Later YHvH made Shabbat a permanent and forever celebration.

It was celebrated through all the Bible.

It was changed in the Fourth Century by Constantine.

When someone states that
"Jesus never taught anyone to keep the Sabbath".
Greg Laurie's statement on Sabbath
that is, on it's face a false statement.

That is the statement that was made by Greg Laurie.

I would think if some believed that Jesus is a
member of the Godhead, and He never changed the Shabbat,
Laurie is teaching some other gospel.

A clear reading of the Gospels show Jesus teaching
how to celebrate the Shabbat. What Jesus is doing
is rebuking the then Religious Leaders who have replaced
YHvH's commands with man-made Traditions for the
celebration of Shabbat.

Laurie is somehow twisting the words of Jesus
to say He is changing the "day of rest" from the day
He(YHvH) commanded to Sunday. Another way to look at
Laurie's words would be that he, Laurie, is teaching
that Jesus is someone other than a member of the Godhead.

I hope this brings some clarity to the discussion.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
15 posted on 03/24/2008 9:10:10 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: XeniaSt; Buggman
Laurie is somehow twisting the words of Jesus to say He is changing the "day of rest" from the day He(YHvH) commanded to Sunday. Another way to look at Laurie's words would be that he, Laurie, is teaching that Jesus is someone other than a member of the Godhead.

If you had said that in that way from the beginning, then I probably would not have blown my stack. While Greg Laurie might be wrong in regard to his opinion on the Sabbath, I think that your prior statement previously was deliberately inflammatory. I must say that for whatever theological faults Greg Laurie might have, I suspect that the Lord has used him for his glory to accomplish more than you, or I, or Buggman, will ever be able to accomplish and what is left of our lifetimes.

That being said, show me anywhere in the Scripture where a day called "Saturday" was designated as the eternal and unchanging day of the Sabbath.

16 posted on 03/24/2008 9:32:00 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; XeniaSt

With all respect Marlowe, are you seriously proposing that the day we call Saturday, which has been universally acknowledged by both Jews and Christians to be the seventh day of the week, isn’t really the seventh day of the week?


17 posted on 03/24/2008 10:33:29 AM PDT by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Buggman
With all respect Marlowe, are you seriously proposing that the day we call Saturday, which has been universally acknowledged by both Jews and Christians to be the seventh day of the week, isn’t really the seventh day of the week?

It might end a lot of animosity between Messianics and the rest of Christianity.

FWIW I do not number the Trinity deniers of the COG among the rest of Christianity. They can keep worshiping on Saturn's day. I will continue to worship on the Son's Day.

18 posted on 03/24/2008 11:45:56 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe
It might end a lot of animosity between Messianics and the rest of Christianity.

We are called to be peacemakers insofar as we can, but if we were supposed to sacrifice fact and truth on the altar of peace, Christianity would never have been born.

Unless you have some really compelling evidence that both the Jews and the Christians screwed up their weekly count--for there was never any debate about which was the seventh day and which the first, just on which should be honored by rest and a special call to worship--then frankly you're just flailing around. And that's not like you, my friend; you've always been a calm, rational pursuer of the truth.

They can keep worshiping on Saturn's day. I will continue to worship on the Son's Day.

Sunday refers to the worship of the Sun in the sky, not the Son of Man, just as the other days are called Moon-day, Tyr's-day, Woden's-day, Thor's-day, Frey's-day, and Saturn-day.

But it was the seventh day, not the first, that the Almighty declared holy--special--in honor of the completion of His Creation. The modern names of the days are irrelevant to what the Bible says on the matter.

Shalom.

19 posted on 03/24/2008 12:09:44 PM PDT by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Buggman; XeniaSt; xzins; blue-duncan
We are called to be peacemakers insofar as we can, but if we were supposed to sacrifice fact and truth on the altar of peace, Christianity would never have been born.

Lets get down to brass tacks. I know you are much more moderate than some of the other Messianics or the COG crowd or the 7th Day Adventists and all the other sects which proclaim that Christians are required to worship on Saturday. I consider this issue as peripheral. I choose not to judge any man in which day he chooses to recognize the Lord and to gather for fellowship, etc. Frankly, if you feel led to worship on Saturday, then I am more than happy for you. In fact I believe it would be wrong for YOU to violate the Sabbath inasmuch as you feel called to treat Saturday as the Sabbath and to refrain from eating of certain meats or leavened bread or whatever other ritual or tradition that the Nation of Israel was obligated as part of their covenant with the Lord to keep. If that is your calling, then praise God.

The fact of the matter is that if you and Xenia are correct and that the whole of Christianity has been in violation of the commandment of the Sabbath for 2000 years and that God requires us to keep the Sabbath as Gentile Christians, then the whole of Christianity is lost.

If in fact keeping a Saturday sabbath is not essential to our being saved, or to our sanctification or our justification before God, then your whole legalistic theology crumbles to the ground. On the other hand if it is essential to our salvation, then salvation is no longer of grace but salvation is by works.

Jesus summed up the ten commandments by dropping them into two. Love God with all your heart and soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Now, unless you are willing to state categorically that all of us Sunday worshipers are on the fast track to hell, then you are going to have to accept the idea that maybe the Saturday Sabbath requirement is a little more flexible than you have imagined. If keeping a Saturday Sabbath is a necessary soteriological ritual, then the whole of Christianity for the last 2000 years will end up in hell.

I have been called to worship on Sunday. I was saved in a Church which had Sunday worship.

I would be willing to bet my house (along with the mortgage) that both you and Xenia St were born again into churches that met and worshiped on Sunday; that somewhere along the line, after you had experienced the grace of God, you separated yourself from the fellowship of those Christians that brought you to the foot of the cross.

Now, unless you are willing to state that you were not born again until you became a Messianic Christian, then I think maybe you don't think this Saturday Sabbath is all that necessary or important either.

20 posted on 03/24/2008 12:46:37 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe; Buggman; XeniaSt; xzins

When we don’t find the specific answer to a specific question in the Bible, we are not free to add to the commands of Scripture what we have found to be pragmatically correct. There are issues and situations for which God has not provided the precise direction or rules that we sometimes desire. While it may be appropriate for one church to meet at a certain time on Sunday morning, it could be completely appropriate for another church to meet at a different time, because the Bible does not speak directly to the issue of Sunday service times. If one church told the other that they needed to meet at a certain hour, that church would be in sin and would not be demonstrating a belief in the sufficiency of Scripture.

In the same way, with regard to living the Christian life, the sufficiency of Scripture reminds us that nothing is sin that is not forbidden by Scripture either explicitly or by implication. Therefore, we are not to add prohibitions where we don’t believe Scripture is precise enough. There may be situations where it is inappropriate for a Christian to drink wine, caffeine, attend a movie theater, or eat meat offered to idols (see 1 Cor. 8-10). But since there isn’t any specific teaching or some general principle of Scripture that forbids these actions by all Christians at all times, these activities are not in themselves sinful.
We should, therefore, exhibit a humble hesitancy in placing more emphasis on the many of these issues than the Bible does.


21 posted on 03/24/2008 1:03:51 PM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Buggman; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan
The bible is specific about those who worshipped on Saturday. The Apostle Paul always went there on those days to teach about the Lord Jesus to those who did not know him.

Christians, on the other hand, met on a different day for their unique worship. This being Easter season, the reason for it is obvious.

"But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb" (St. Luke 24, 1-2)

"Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb" (St. John 20, 1)

Joh 20:19 - On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

The Lord was raised on SonDay, as Christians are wont to think of it. (The Son Rises in the Easter(n) Direction in an interesting Anglo-Saxon word play)

Likewise, the Day of Pentecost, when the Comforter came was on: SonDay -

"You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths. You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to the Lord. " (Leviticus 23:15-16)

7 Sabbaths + 1 = SonDay. This is evident in that the Christians were gathered together and the Jews were wandering around outside being amazed at what was transpiring....rather than being in synagogue or practicing "non-travel" rules.

Note that the Christians were all together.

"When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place." (Acts 2:1)

They had a habit as early as the first Pentecost after the Resurrection of being together on the 1st day of the week. Surely, it wasn't because the Lord had Risen on that day....could it be!

This continued through the early Church:

"7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.(Acts 20, 7).

"On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come" (1 Cor. 16, 2)

To all this, one must now add the words Marlowe has mentioned about not being judged on the Sabbaths that are kept, the authority of the church to "loose and bind on earth," and the words of the early Christians, like Ignatius in 110 AD, who clearly indicate that they considered SonDay their day of worship and gathering.

It makes sense: The LORD'S DAY is SonDay.

"I, John, your brother who share with you in Jesus the persecution...was on the island called Patmos...I was in the spirit on the Lord's day..." (Rev. 1, 9-10)

22 posted on 03/24/2008 6:12:55 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: xzins; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan
To hit your points in order:

Resurrection Day - That actually works against you because they went on the first day of the week in order to avoid violating the Sabbath.. They also just so happened to come on the Feast of Firstfruits that year to witness the Firstfruits of the risen dead.

Likewise, the Day of Pentecost, when the Comforter came was on: SonDay

Which again corresponds to a Biblical Feast, Shavuot or Pentecost, so how does this suggest that God's calendar changed? I mean really, xzins, that'd be like me observing that Christmas this year comes on a Thursday, and that Christians came together to pray and worship on Christmas, and therefore that means that God changed the day of worship from Sunday to Thursday, right?

It seems to me that you're making a better case for keeping the Biblical Feasts of Firstfruits and Shavuot than for switching from Sabbath to Sunday.

Acts 20, 7 - Okay, one reference to meeting on the first of the week, at midnight. Four answers:

First, just because you have a Bible study on Wednesday, does that indicate a change in the day of worship? Or does it perhaps indicate a supplemental meeting?

Second, Jews meet to pray and worship on every day of the week, so barring a clear commandment to the contrary, why should we regard this as a change from Sabbath to Sunday? (This was actually true of Christians for most of Church history as well, with set times for morning and evening prayers every day.)

Third, Paul was getting ready to leave, so why wouldn't they have a special farewell meeting regardless of the day of the week?

Fourth, since Jews count days from sundown-to-sundown instead of from midnight-to-midnight or dawn-to-dawn, midnight on the first day would be midnight Saturday, not Sunday. Furthermore, the presence of the lamps would be consistent with a synagogue Havdalah service, when fire is first rekindled after the Sabbath.

1 Cor. 16, 2 - Again, consistent with the continued observance of the Sabbath, since Jews strive to avoid even handling money on the Sabbath. Therefore, it make perfect sense to take up alms on the first day of the week, after the Sabbath had concluded. If Paul considered the Sabbath in any way, sense, or form to be transferred to the first day of the week, he--still a practicing Pharisee--would never have counseled taking up an offering then.

Rev. 1, 9-10 - Since John does not say that the Lord's Day is Sunday--indeed, there was continued dispute about this in the Ekklesia that was only settled by Imperial Decree in the 4th Century--you are simply committing eisegesis here.

Now, since I don't like to remain on the defensive, here are the counter-points:

Luke 4:16 - "He (Yeshua) came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. He entered, as was His custom, into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read."

If it was our Lord's custom to be in the house of study, prayer, and worship on the Sabbath, why should it not be ours? "But whoever keeps His word, God’s love has most certainly been perfected in him. This is how we know that we are in Him: he who says he remains in Him ought himself also to walk just like He walked" (1Jn. 2:5-6).

Acts 13-15 - Everyone reads Acts 15 out of context in order to say that the Torah has been done away with, but the preceding chapters disabuse us of that notion. We see that when Paul and Barnabbas declare the Messiah, the initial reception is cautiously warm--until the next Sabbath when the synagogue was overrun by Gentiles who want to hear about this God who loves them so much that He sent His Son to die for them. That's when many of the Jews, and the synagogue leadership, turn on the Gospel message and kick the Emissaries out.

This apparently becomes something of a recurring pattern, exacerbated by a group of troublemakers who made it their life's mission to follow Paul and Barnabas around and stir people up against them.

So then, when we read about the debate in Acts 15 about whether Gentiles must become Jewish via the ritual of circumcision and must keep the whole Torah as prerequisites to salvation and acceptance in fellowship, we need to understand why this debate even came up: Because Gentiles were already coming into the synagogues on the Sabbath to hear about the God of Abraham and His Messiah.

This explains Jacob's otherwise cryptic comment in Acts 15:21, "For Moses from generations of old has in every city those who proclaim him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." He is saying that since the Gentiles were already coming into the synagogues on the Sabbath to learn about God of their own will, then they would only put the minimum requirements on them to make sure that they separated from paganism, and trust the Spirit to take it from there.

(Longer explanation here, if you want it.)

We also have Paul going to synagogue or praying with others on the sabbath in Acts 16:13, 17:2, and 18:4.

And finally, if one actually reads the original Greek and compares the key word to its use in the Septuagint, Heb. 4:10 actually tells us to continue to keep the Sabbath on the seventh day.

Aside from all that, God repeats the command to keep the Sabbath several times in the Torah, and the failure to keep the Sabbath of years was one of the reasons Israel was expelled from the land. That being the case, how can one claim that the Sabbath was moved on the basis of a couple of passages that simply note that believers gathered on the first day, especially when two of those three occasions are Feasts from the Torah?

Xzins, I love you, and on the basis of Rom. 14 and Col. 2 I'm not out to judge you on the basis of an honest disagreement. But I do believe that you are wrong on this matter, and I also believe that by changing the holy day of the week without Biblical warrant, the Church has rebuilt the wall of separation from the other side, separating Jew and Gentile.

Shalom.

23 posted on 03/25/2008 8:44:30 AM PDT by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Buggman
Starting at the top: "works against you because they went on the first day of the week in order to avoid violating the Sabbath"

No, it doesn't. It was pre-everything that later transpired. Of course they hadn't started worshipping on the Lord's Day yet. They didn't know at that point the impact of what they were about to witness.

24 posted on 03/25/2008 9:34:10 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: xzins
No, it doesn't. It was pre-everything that later transpired.

Xzins, this would be a fine explanation for why the Lord's day changed IF you had a clear statement in the New Testament that it had changed. You don't, as demonstrated by the rest of our interchange.

Tell me, why do you see this event as evidence that we should be gathering and worshiping on Sunday instead of gathering and worshiping on the Feast of Firstfruits according to the Jewish calendar?

Shalom.

25 posted on 03/25/2008 11:14:38 AM PDT by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Buggman

I gave you examples demonstrating that a change had taken place. They were in the custom of meeting on the first day of the week.

You also know that they were permitted to loose and bind whatever they wished.

Besides, it makes sense to worship Jesus on Resurrection Day. I’m not sure how this lessens Saturday any????


26 posted on 03/25/2008 11:46:23 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: xzins
I gave you examples demonstrating that a change had taken place. They were in the custom of meeting on the first day of the week.

We have one example of them meeting on Saturday night and one of them collecting money after the Sabbath so that the Jewish believers wouldn't have to handle money on the day of rest. We have several examples of them continuing in the synagogues on the Sabbath and Gentiles coming into the synagogues to learn about and worship God on the Sabbath, as well as the Lord's own example to follow.

Why do you see your two examples as overriding my half-dozen, the true teaching of Hebrews 4, and the whole Torah?

You also know that they were permitted to loose and bind whatever they wished.

Then I guess the Catholic Church leaders could just bind us into Marian devotion, purgatory, indulgences, and relics, now couldn't they?

Binding and loosing was limited in its authority. It gives one the authority to make rulings based on the Scriptures, not to override any existing Scriptures.

Besides, it makes sense to worship Jesus on Resurrection Day. I’m not sure how this lessens Saturday any????

It actually doesn't lessen the Sabbath at all to worship on Sunday--provided one does not let it. Again, the practice in traditional, Orthodox Judaism is to gather and worship corporately every day. Such was the practice in the early and medieval Church as well.

So the issue is not whether one may worship on Sunday. Of course you can! But that doesn't change the fact that God commanded that we observe the Sabbath and keep it holy, or that the Sabbath is on the seventh day.

I know Christians (Chuck Missler comes to mind) who continue to worship on Sunday, but who make a point of setting aside the Sabbath to be with their families and to rest in the Lord because they recognize that God especially sanctified that day. I have no problem with that at all; in fact, I see it as a wonderful thing, for they are treating the Sabbath as a delight to enjoy in the Lord rather than a burden to be avoided.

My problem is not with my brethren meeting on Sunday, but with the tradition of men that God either moved or annulled the Sabbath. He has done neither, and I must uphold the Bible above any and all traditions of men.

Shalom.

27 posted on 03/25/2008 12:47:41 PM PDT by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Buggman
Hebrews 4 is speaking of entering the rest that is ours through belief in Jesus (4:3 - 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest,)

It is not speaking of any discussion about the Sabbath at all. Therefore, neither is 4:10 -

10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.

11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. 14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.


28 posted on 03/25/2008 5:46:30 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson