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Our Journey Home
Coming Home Network ^ | Larry and Joetta Lewis

Posted on 04/03/2008 3:24:39 PM PDT by annalex

Our Journey Home

By Larry and Joetta Lewis

My father is a retired Assemblies of God pastor. My parents had a deep and abiding love for Jesus Christ. Their lives expressed who Christ was.

I vividly remember being awakened in the middle of the night by the sound of their praying. Praying for each of the people in their church. Although my parents never spoke in derogatory terms about anyone, including Catholics, many of the ministers I came in contact with were not so generous. I heard more than one preacher expound on the evils of Catholicism. For many it was taken for granted that the Catholic Church was the Great Whore of Babylon and the Pope the antichrist. I was in my thirties and an ordained Methodist minister before I met my first nun, Sister Monica Marie. Joetta had taught with her at Ursuline Academy in Dallas, Texas. It was through Sister Monica Marie that Joetta experienced a dynamic encounter with the Holy Spirit. To my surprise I discovered that Sister was truly a woman of God. My heart was warmed just by being in her presence. She was totally the opposite of all I had envisioned nuns to be.

My first contact with a priest was just two years ago. While working on my Doctorate at Oral Roberts University I met Father Amalor Vima from India. As class mates we spent a good deal of time together and became close friends. It was in this environment that something happened that would revolutionized my life forever. During a reflective moment in one of our sessions, Selmar Quayo, a Methodist Bishop from Brazil, stood to his feet and said: "In my country, as a Protestant, I am in the minority. Unfortunately, there is much animosity between our church and the Catholic Church. Many of my people are filled with bitterness toward all Catholics. Yet here, Father Vima is in the minority and I’ve seen nothing from his life but the love of Jesus Christ." With tears running down his face he said, "Father Vima, I want you to forgive me."

I watched as these two men of God embraced. There was not a dry eye in the room. In that one brief moment my mind began to envision a new possibility—Protestants and Catholics all over the world coming together, embracing in love, and dropping to their knees in prayer.

In this simple act Selmar Quayo had challenged all of us to become ministers of reconciliation. My thoughts raced. "Imagine what the Holy Spirit could do if Catholics and Protestants really were one."The words of Jesus flashed through my mind, "If you are offering your gift at the altar and remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift" (Matt 5:23-24). As I watched the scene unfold I could almost hear Jesus praying, "May all of them be one, Father . . . that the world may believe that you have sent me" (John 17:21). I knew at that moment I must become a minister of reconciliation.

Years earlier Joetta and I had ministered at a Southern Baptist Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma. After the service, a woman came up to Joetta and asked her if she would pray for her daughter, Regan. She did not, however, want to divulge the specific prayer need. Joetta assured her that it wasn’t necessary to know the need because the Holy Spirit would intercede for Regan. For the next year, Joetta prayed faithfully for a young lady she had never met.

At that time Joetta was working as a Technical Writer for Thrifty Rent-A-Car. One day, her boss informed her that they had hired a new Software Trainer and were going to put her in the cubicle across from Joetta’s. They asked Joetta to make her feel welcome and to show her around. When the new trainer arrived, she introduced herself as Regan. To Joetta’s surprise, here stood the young lady she had been praying for all those months! God was definitely up to something. Joetta and Regan worked as associates over the next seven years. Although they never socialized outside of the work place, they began to develop a close relationship.

One day in 1995, Regan shared that she and her husband were having problems in their marriage. Kelvin was a Roman Catholic, and she was a Southern Baptist. For several years, Regan attended the Catholic Church off and on with Kelvin and although he did not fell comfortable in the Baptist Church he would attend with Regan on special occasions. This arrangement worked, until they had children and realized how strongly they both felt about how their children should be raised. To Regan’s chagrin Kelvin was adamant about baptizing and raising their children in the Catholic Church. They were at an impasse when Regan came to Joetta for advice.

Joetta told Regan that a house divided cannot stand, and that it was essential that they be in church together. Joetta suggested that, if her husband would not go to church with her, she should go to church with him. God would bless their marriage if Regan would submit to the spiritual authority of her husband. Joetta informed Regan of some classes held by the Catholic Church which she could attend, without obligation, to learn about the Catholic faith. Joetta said, "If I were you, I would want to know what my children were going to be taught, so that I could counter any incorrect teaching." For Regan’s peace of mind, Joetta said, "You go through the program, bring all of the material to me, and I’ll give it to Larry so that he can check it out and see if it is Scripturally sound."

I never paid any attention to the material Regan gave Joetta, except for two things. One was a newspaper article by a Lutheran journalist discussing Marian apparitions. The author of the article had spoken at Regan’s church and told how the Mother of God had been appearing to six young children daily since 1981. Regan was so intrigued she read everything she could get her hands on. The second thing she gave us was a cassette by a woman who had been miraculously healed at the same apparition site. This woman, a nominal Christian at best, was so impacted by the experience that she committed her life to serving Christ. I took these items and started to throw them away. On a whim I stuck them in a drawer instead.

The week prior to May 25, 1996, Regan told Joetta that she was going to a Marian conference in Wichita, Kansas. She was really excited about it because both the author of the article and the woman who had been healed were featured speakers. Regan, however, was bothered by a prayer she had received in the pre-conference material that supposedly would be prayed at the conference. "I would like," she told Joetta, "for you and Larry to look it over and see what you think." As Joetta read the prayer, all kinds of red flags went up. In almost a state of panic she brought the prayer to me. It was the Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. As I began to read the prayer the hair on the back of my neck stood straight up. "Immaculate Heart of Mary, I give to you my body and soul . . . ." I stopped in mid sentence. Rage filled my heart. "This prayer is demonic!" I said, "You don’t give your soul to anyone but Jesus. Tell Regan she can go to the Conference but whatever she does don’t pray that prayer." Within three days, something deep within my spirit told me I had made a terrible mistake. Remorse for what I had said flooded my soul.

I decided to take a copy of the prayer to Fr. Vima, "I don’t understand this prayer," I said. "How in the world can you give yourself to Mary in this way?" With a twinkle in his eye Fr. Vima gently said, "Larry, have you ever held Joetta in your arms and said, ‘I love you, I adore you, I worship the ground you walk on’?" "Yes," I cautiously replied. "Have you looked lovingly into her eyes and assured her of your complete love and devotion? Have you spoken words like, ‘I am completely yours now and forever’? ‘All that I am and all that I ever hope to be is yours.’?" I was beginning to get his point. "If the truth were known," I admitted, "I’ve used those exact words."

"Catholics," he continued, "would never say of Mary, ‘We adore you.’ We venerate her. We honor her. But, we would never say ‘we adore you’ because adoration is reserved only for God. It is something we give only to Jesus. We adore Him. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and there is no one like Him. We believe that Mary, as the Mother of God, loves and cares for us. What we’re saying in this prayer is, ‘All of me, I place in your hands and I ask you to take me to your son, Jesus.’ Mary always points to Jesus."

As I listened to Fr. Vima I began to realize how wrong I had been. Two emotions flooded over me simultaneously—shame and joy. Shame for my quick assessment, and joy at the possibilities that were opening up.

I went home and found the Marian newspaper I had put in one of my dresser drawers and begin to read. As I read what Mary was reported as saying I was struck by how biblically based her messages were—pray, repent, fast, commit your life to Christ. This was obviously not the work of Satan. I wondered out loud, "Could this really be the Mother of God." If it were, than what she said was important and worthy of our consideration. One of her more frequent statements was somewhat puzzling: "Pray the Rosary every day." Joetta and I knew nothing about the Rosary. Perhaps it was time to discover what this prayer was all about.

As Regan was leaving for the Marian conference, Joetta gave her some money to buy a Rosary. Their relationship had become strained, and sometimes emotionally charged because of Mary, and Joetta felt that if she let Regan show her how to ray the Rosary, it would at least keep them dialoguing. When Regan gave Joetta her Rosary, she said, "What’s great is that the man who made this Rosary lives just outside Tulsa, in Claremore, Oklahoma. If there’s ever a problem with the Rosary, it is guaranteed."

The more closely that Joetta looked at her Rosary, the less she liked the centerpiece. "It looks like an idol. I think I’ll call Two Hearts Rosaries and see if they’ll exchange it for something else."

"Come on out," the voice on the other end of the line said, "Bob’s work is guaranteed, and he will be happy to replace it with something you like." When we arrived, Bob’s wife Johanna asked Joetta what was wrong with the Rosary. "It’s the centerpiece," Joetta said, "I don’t like the centerpiece." Johanna looked at her quizzically, "What about it don’t you like?" "Wellit looks too, you know, Catholic!"

"The Rosary," Johanna smiled, "is Catholic!" While Joetta looked at centerpieces, Bob was sharing with me what had happened to them on a pilgrimage to an apparition site in Europe. I yelled at Joetta, "Come in here and listen to this. You won’t believe this story!" These were the first real Catholics that we had ever spent any time with, other than Sister Monica Marie and Fr. Vima.

Bob shared with us how God through Mary had transformed their lives. As he told their story, tears rolled down his face. He said he hasn’t stopped crying since he got back from their pilgrimage. In his words, his heart "just turned to mush." When they got back, Bob went in and quit his job at Amoco. He was a laboratory technician and had been with the company for over 21 years. Not too long after that, Johanna quit her job at Tulsa University. God was calling them to complete obedience and dependence upon him.

During this time, Bob met a nun who showed him how to make Rosaries. Bob decided to make two Rosaries: one to thank Mary for leading him to Jesus, and one to thank Jesus for saving his soul. The rest is history. All of Bob’s rosaries are lovingly hand-made. He sees each bead as a prayer sent out by Mary to convert and bring souls to Jesus. Joetta’s and my conversion are the direct result of those prayers.

After our meeting with Bob and Johanna, I was emotionally shaken. As we drove away neither of us said a word. It was as if we had experienced an epiphany. I can’t explain it. I felt like I had been in the presence of Jesus. Not wanting to go right home I pulled into a Taco Bueno to get something to drink. As we sat there looking at each other tears began to stream down our faces. What was happening to us? What was God asking of us?

Our lives were literally being pushed toward the Catholic Church. Regan had introduced us to the owners of the local Catholic bookstore, so we decided to go there for more information. Lee and Anita lovingly welcomed us and pointed us to exactly what we needed. When we figured our income tax at the end of that year, we discovered that we had spent over $5,000 on books, cassettes, videos, and other materials in search of spiritual truths! We couldn’t get enough. We were in Lee’s store three and four times a day. "We’re here for our Catholic fix." Lee and Anita would just laugh and point us to another book, cassette, or video. It was like an addiction that we couldn’t get satisfied. One question just led to another and another. It was a wonderful experience.

We began going to bed later and waking up earlier trying to jam as much reading into the day as possible. We decided to maximize our time. I began taking Joetta to work and picking her up so that we could read out loud coming and going. I would pick her up for lunch, put a couple of lawn chairs and TV trays in the trunk and drive to a park so that we could read without interruptions. We took turns—one would eat while the other would read out loud. We did everything together. God was graciously speaking to us together. Drawing us at the same pace deeper into himself.

We read the Catechism from cover to cover. The Catechism is the greatest systematic theological work we have ever read. Answers to long sought after questions were coming like torrential showers.

I remember one Saturday morning in particular. We both woke up about 4 o’clock in the morning. We sat up in bed with our Bibles in one hand and Catechisms in the other. I would say, "Joetta, listen to this. This is fantastic. This just brings everything into focus!" Before I would finish, Joetta would interrupt and say, "Larry, wait, wait. Listen to this!" She would then read from a different section of the Catechism. We would read supporting scripture verses, go to the writings of the Early Church Fathers and then check a commentary. Before we knew it, it was 1 o’clock in the afternoon! We were like sponges. Issues such as the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine, the role of Mary in the Church, prayers to the saints, Scripture and Tradition as authoritative vs. Sola Scriptura, Papal authority, Purgatory, and Salvation as a process vs. Salvation as a completed work we began to see in a whole new light. It was like finding all the lost pieces in a huge theological puzzle. The full picture was becoming clear.

The Lord was taking us down two paths simultaneously: one intellectual and the other emotional. We had been praying the Rosary, and parking ourselves on Bob and Johanna’s sofa, asking question after question about Catholic doctrine, tradition, and culture. We asked God to somehow reveal to us if He was drawing us to the Catholic Church, because none of this made any sense to us. We had spent all of our lives in Protestant churches and were quite content in our ministry. We desperately needed to know about the Church to which God was calling us, so three short weeks into our conversion I prayed this prayer. "Father, if you are drawing us into the Catholic Church, I want a sign, and I want it big."

Several days later, we were coming home from a short trip to Dallas. As we largest, most vivid sun either of us had ever seen. It went from horizon to horizon, and it looked like we were going to drive right into it. An indescribable array of colors—orange, red, and pink. It was magnificent, so much so that our young grandson, who was sleeping in the back set sat up and said, "Grandpa, grandpa, do you see that? Isn’t it beautiful?" As brilliant as it was we could look right at it.

As the sun went down we put in a cassette tape by Dr. Scott Hahn and continued toward Oklahoma City. As I looked into the night sky I prayed again silently, "Oh God, if you’re drawing us into the Catholic Church, give us a sign and please make it big!"

At the same time, unknown to me, Joetta was staring out the passenger window silently praying, "Blessed Mother, if you’re real, we have to know beyond a doubt." Suddenly, I heard Joetta gasp and say, "Oh my, Larry, Larry, look!" As I looked to the right I saw what looked like a chain of stars falling in slow motion at a downward angle from right to left. Just before the stars reached the horizon they shot straight up and then fell back toward the earth again falling right in the center of the highway. Usually a falling star shoots downward and moves so quickly you don’t have time to tell anyone about it. We were speechless, because we both saw it! Finally Joetta broke the silence, "You did see that didn’t you?" We were both visibly shaken.

I put in a cassette by Catholic singer Dana in which she sings through the Rosary, and for the next hour and thirty minutes we prayed the Rosary with her. We finished just as we reached the exit road going toward our parsonage. As we turned under the freeway and went up over a little hill, there, sitting on the road in front of us was the most beautiful, enormous, vivid quarter-moon we had ever seen. Like the sunset, it seemed to literally sit in the middle of the road and extended as high into the sky as we could the sun. For 2 1/2 miles, we watched in total silence.

As we turned into our driveway the moon disappeared. "Joetta, what does all of this remind you of?" "Revelation chapter 12," she said: "‘A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.’" At that moment we knew that the Holy Spirit was not only bringing us to the Catholic Church, but that Mary was leading the way.

 Two months later Joetta and I knelt in a small chapel on the University of Tulsa campus and prayed the prayer of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Our love for her is without bounds. I had been afraid that she would somehow take away from my love for Jesus, but what I found was that my love for Christ has deepened beyond measure. Truly our cup runs over!

On September 12, 1997, I surrendered my ordination papers to Bishop Bruce Blake of the United Methodist Church. In doing so, I laid down 30 years of Protestant ministry to become a Catholic. To many of my colleagues, this seemed a horrible mistake, but to Joetta and I, it was "coming home."

In January, we made a pilgrimage to Rome to symbolize our desire to place ourselves under the authority of Pope John Paul II and the Roman Catholic Church. This March, Joetta and I made a pilgrimage to a Marian site in Eastern Europe to thank the Blessed Mother for bringing us into the Church. We now look forward with great anticipation to being received into full communion in the Catholic Church this coming Easter Vigil. This will be the culmination of a 23 month, life transforming odyssey. Thank you Mary for loving us home.

 

Larry Lewis has a Master of Divinity degree from Phillips Theological Seminary and is currently a Doctoral candidate at Oral Roberts University where his doctoral research is in Catholic apologetics. The Lewis’ have three married daughters and five grandchildren.



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To: papertyger

Notice Jesus’s words were ‘the same’ which has the same meaning as what I said, ‘no difference’. That is quite different than twisting it to day Mary was not important. She was doing God’s will, which is extremely important.


101 posted on 04/03/2008 9:52:35 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: papertyger

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


102 posted on 04/03/2008 9:58:12 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: roamer_1
Can you forgive your friend of his sins? Can you heal him? Can you cause his heart to be opened to our Lord? Not of your own will, you cannot. You may ask for those things for your friend, in Christ's name. It is still Christ that intercedes. It is still His work that forgives, heals, or saves, not yours or mine.

None of that changes the dynamic you object to in the first place. It doesn't matter if I'm interceeding in Christ's name, or by the power of Castle Grayskull: I'm still interceeding which according to your earlier formulation, is usurping Christ's role as priest.

103 posted on 04/03/2008 10:20:21 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: Always Right
You completely mischaracterize my statement...

Forgive me!

"Nothing special" and "no different" are such obvious polar opposites!

How on earth could I ever think that's gnat-gagging?

104 posted on 04/03/2008 10:32:02 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger

Actually, it is night and day. If God had not thought believers were nothing special he would not have sent His only begotten son to save those who believe. That is VERY special. Jesus refers to us as brothers and sisters. That is VERY special. VERY special is the same as VERY special. You twist it to say VERY special = Nothing special. I was parroting God’s word, and you twist it to me saying Mary was nothing special.


105 posted on 04/03/2008 10:42:00 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: Always Right
I was parroting God's word

Really? Where does God's word say Mary is "no different?"

All this fuss about Mary being "special" sounds awfully Catholic to me.

106 posted on 04/03/2008 11:00:44 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger

It is from Matt 12:46-50 and was quoted in post 100. Jesus says his mother is the same as all people who do God’s will in the Kingdom of God. The difference between Catholics and Protestants is Protestants like Christ put all people as brothers and sisters equal in the eyes of God. While Catholics create this hierarchy that Mary is the greatest person ever, followed by saints and popes, and eventually we get down to the peons who are unimportant and who God would never listen to without the help of Mary or some great saint.


107 posted on 04/03/2008 11:09:33 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: Always Right
Jesus says his mother is the same as all people who do God's will in the Kingdom of God.

That is NOT what he said. Interpretation is NOT "parroting."

And the only difference I know of between Catholics and Protestants that matters any is when I was a Protestant, God did not answer my prayer for deliverance while I was proclaiming myself delivered, and He did deliver me when I let the guy who was rightfully entitled to be Pope have the job instead of being my own Pope.

108 posted on 04/03/2008 11:28:51 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger

Perhaps bitterness held you back during your pre-Catholic days. Again, I am glad Catholicism works for you. Faith in Jesus is what saves. If it took becoming Catholic for you, that is great. But that is your experience. Many people find Jesus in other ways, including dare I say in Protestant churches. You just seem to still have anger towards fellow Christians which I don’t get.


109 posted on 04/03/2008 11:40:37 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: annalex

Christ tells us over and over and over we are to come directly to Him

The scripture you posted does not say that, “doctor”. Please post the scripture that supports your opinion.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Couldn’t be any clearer.


110 posted on 04/03/2008 11:56:55 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: Always Right
You just seem to still have anger towards fellow Christians which I don't get.

Would you not be angered by those who make promises predicated on the Bible, then define everything associated with those promises in such fuzzy terms there's no way to judge if the promise is being kept or not?

That's not "faith," it's fraud! And it's done in the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ!

111 posted on 04/03/2008 11:58:32 PM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: annalex

Christ tells us over and over and over we are to come directly to Him

The scripture you posted does not say that, “doctor”. Please post the scripture that supports your opinion.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Couldn’t be any clearer.


112 posted on 04/04/2008 12:01:16 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: annalex

Christ tells us over and over and over we are to come directly to Him

The scripture you posted does not say that, “doctor”. Please post the scripture that supports your opinion.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Couldn’t be any clearer.


113 posted on 04/04/2008 12:01:56 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: annalex

Christ tells us over and over and over we are to come directly to Him

The scripture you posted does not say that, “doctor”. Please post the scripture that supports your opinion.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Couldn’t be any clearer.


114 posted on 04/04/2008 12:05:21 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus

Sorry, I kept getting a server error.


115 posted on 04/04/2008 12:06:17 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Couldn't be any clearer.

Sure it could. You say that like you have a detailed understanding of how the Trinity works.

You people act like if I "go to the movies" I can't "eat popcorn" too.

116 posted on 04/04/2008 12:11:39 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger

Sure it could. You say that like you have a detailed understanding of how the Trinity works.”

Marys part of the Trinity? Wow, how did I miss that?


117 posted on 04/04/2008 12:14:54 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus
Sorry, I kept getting a server error.

Really? I didn't notice.

Really? I didn't notice.

Really? I didn't notice.

Really? I didn't notice.

Really? I didn't notice.

;o)

118 posted on 04/04/2008 12:15:59 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: philetus
Marys part of the Trinity? Wow, how did I miss that?

Don't you think that kind of insinuation is unecessarily provocative?

119 posted on 04/04/2008 12:24:04 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger

You can’t refute John 14:6, so you act stupid and ignore it.


120 posted on 04/04/2008 12:25:41 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus

Don’t you think that kind of insinuation is unecessarily provocative? “

You’re an idiot


121 posted on 04/04/2008 12:26:41 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus
You can't refute John 14:6, so you act stupid and ignore it.

Nonsense. I don't need to refute it, because you can't define the limits of what that Scripture permits.

122 posted on 04/04/2008 12:31:49 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: Huber; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy

***Dr. E - I saw you pinged and was wondering when exactly you and Gamecock had started watching EWTN.***

When Charles Manson is elected President of the United States, I might watch for a few minutes


123 posted on 04/04/2008 12:35:27 AM PDT by Gamecock (Viva La Reformacion!)
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To: philetus
You're an idiot

Not at all. It's just that when we Catholics answer in the same manner as our slanderous brethren, our posts get pulled, so we have to be more circumspect.

124 posted on 04/04/2008 12:37:33 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger
I'm still interceeding which according to your earlier formulation, is usurping Christ's role as priest.

In the first place, your 'usurpation' is a bit presumptuous. You have no ability to usurp anything that is Christ's.

Secondly, while you are welcome to try, any intercession you might make before Jehovah standing upon your own name will come to naught. Standing upon the name of Aaron, in the way of the Levitical priesthood is also without merit. You may stand upon Peter, or any apostle, Mary, or any saint, the power of castle grayskull, the great doorknob, or the devil himself... Bupkis.

There is only Christ. Jehovah has hidden Himself from all others, as they are a stench in his nostrils.

And by the way, assuming intersession of saints for the sake of argument, If one knows the name of the High Priest, having a personal relationship with Him, what other name would better suffice? What shepherd shall we call to but our own? Why would one place a call to the advertising department when one has the private number of the CEO? It seems a bit silly, doesn't it?

Our prayers, be they praise, forgiveness, intercessory for others, or whatever, are all offerings before the Father. They ALL must pass from us to our Priest (intercessor), to the Father. We are unworthy to access the Father without the intercessory power of our Priest. That is why we pray in his name, and no other name will do.

So no, your intercessory prayer does not 'usurp' anything, nor does it in fact intercede. You ask in Christ's name for Jehovah to intercede as an offering of faith.

Finally, I think that prayers of intercession are quite like an act of forgiveness toward someone who has harmed you personally:

That act of forgiveness is seldom known to the person one is forgiving, and has no real impact upon that person's life. The act of forgiveness has much more influence upon oneself- It heals one's self of anger and fear, distrust and self pity. It causes one to put the matter to bed and to cease dwelling on the offense. It is really profound, and worth understanding.

Likewise, I imagine an intercessory prayer is of little real effect in the presence of an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent God. He already knew the score, and was already inclined to help, no matter who one might be praying over, or why. Does He need us to draw attention to the plight? Would He have forgotten that soul's cries had we not reminded Him? Are we not just an incidental tool in this way?

But that act of caring and belief does much within oneself to form a contrite heart, ready for supplication. Belief brings more belief, caring brings more caring, and so it goes. As is always the case, selflessly focusing upon others before God winds up helping you more than them.

125 posted on 04/04/2008 1:00:35 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: papertyger

You can’t refute John 14:6, so you act stupid and ignore it.

Nonsense. I don’t need to refute it, because you can’t define the limits of what that Scripture permits. “

Nonsense yourself. Out of curiosity, how do you interpret John 14:6 to get limits to “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”, in answer to Thomas’s “and how can we know the way?”


126 posted on 04/04/2008 1:03:23 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus

I hate to get in on this, but I have to ask, if the Holy Mother points a soul to Her Son Who brings that lost soul to the Father, is that not coming to the Father through the Son? Where is the contradiction? It seems no different to me than you as a Christian pointing to Christ through your witness to some lost soul, right?


127 posted on 04/04/2008 1:04:05 AM PDT by beachdweller
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To: papertyger

I’ll read your answer later. I have to get some sleep.
I’m having surgery at 6 in the morning.


128 posted on 04/04/2008 1:05:10 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: beachdweller

It seems no different to me than you as a Christian pointing to Christ through your witness to some lost soul, right?”

wrong


129 posted on 04/04/2008 1:07:46 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get.)
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To: philetus

Then explain how the witness of Christ’s Mother is less than yours as a Christian. Your one word answer seems insufficient to me.


130 posted on 04/04/2008 1:39:26 AM PDT by beachdweller
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To: roamer_1
In the first place, your 'usurpation' is a bit presumptuous. You have no ability to usurp anything that is Christ's.

Hey, I'm not the one that claimed "The role of the intercessor is the same thing as the role of a priest," so don't expect ME to make sense out of it.

Why would one place a call to the advertising department when one has the private number of the CEO? It seems a bit silly, doesn't it?

Not at all. One does not treat their sovereign like their "go-to-guy." The Scriptures tell us in many places to be cautious in the presence of the King.

Likewise, I imagine an intercessory prayer is of little real effect in the presence of an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent God.

Which is why we ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to interceed for us. The Scriptures clearly state Jesus told the BVM "mine hour is not yet come," but He changed the divine plan for His first miracle to accommodate her. NO ONE else in Scripture evinces such a profound influence on the Almighty for such a pedestrian problem.

131 posted on 04/04/2008 2:02:13 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: philetus
Out of curiosity, how do you interpret John 14:6 to get limits to “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

I'm not the one interpreting limits to what "by me" can mean: you are.

As I said earlier it's like someone insisting you could not have eaten any popcorn if all you said was "I went to see a movie."

Why is it never enough for Protestants to say they disagree with Catholic interpretation of Scripture; they always seem to have to find something wicked about it.

132 posted on 04/04/2008 2:42:45 AM PDT by papertyger (The left fosters lawlessness & bad culture by denying the legitimacy of the law and Western culture.)
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To: papertyger
Would you not be angered by those who make promises predicated on the Bible, then define everything associated with those promises in such fuzzy terms there's no way to judge if the promise is being kept or not?

Apparently, you and I were both burned by the abortionists of the Jesus Movement, the paperback "prophets" and prognosticators. I found my way through to the clarity of Reformed theology, and you hacked your way through that swamp to another great tradition. We would agree that there is a Judge, and a coming reckoning, that will make Fabulous Hal's fortunes, and four wives, of faint comfort.

133 posted on 04/04/2008 3:36:01 AM PDT by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: beachdweller
I hate to get in on this, but I have to ask, if the Holy Mother points a soul to Her Son Who brings that lost soul to the Father, is that not coming to the Father through the Son? Where is the contradiction? It seems no different to me than you as a Christian pointing to Christ through your witness to some lost soul, right?

But I am here, in the flesh, in the course of normal human life. The BVM is seen as functioning as a spiritual intermediary. A friendly ghost who helps us deal with other (equivalent?) Spirits. The boundary between Creator and Creation is blurred, from the wrong direction. And spookiness sets in.

134 posted on 04/04/2008 3:41:38 AM PDT by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: beachdweller
It seems no different to me than you as a Christian pointing to Christ through your witness to some lost soul, right?

Excellent. In that we Christians are all alive in Christ, there is no difference between asking your fellow Christian physically next to you to pray for you, and asking your fellow Christian now in Heaven to pray for you.

135 posted on 04/04/2008 4:49:46 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard; beachdweller

This is true.

There are also Scriptural events that help us to understand the importance of helping one another with prayer and/or helping another person by our intercessory actions.

Just a few examples among quite a few:

Those who helped to hold up the arms of Moses as he prayed to God;

Those who made an opening in the roof and lowered the man into the area where Jesus was, so that Jesus could cure him;

The foot soldier that the centurion sent to Jesus to ask Him to cure his child.

Then there was Mary who was sent by the angel to help her cousin Elizabeth—who saw Mary and in that moment recognized Mary as blessed and the fruit of her womb as blessed.

At Cana, it was God’s will that Mary intercede for the poor couple who ran out of wine at their wedding feast. Since Scripture tells us in the Psalms that whatever God wills, He does, we can be sure that it was His will that Mary should act as intercessor. All she said was: “They have no wine”. Jesus did the rest. She also told the chief steward: “Do whatever He tells you”. The chief steward listened to her, did what the Lord told him to do, and —not surprisingly at all—he was, by listening and obeying, the first person to witness Jesus’ first public miracle.


136 posted on 04/04/2008 5:36:59 AM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words:"It's too late"))
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To: Running On Empty
She also told the chief steward: “Do whatever He tells you”.

I believe that is the best advice ever given to anyone by any human person.

137 posted on 04/04/2008 5:43:34 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: papertyger
And the only difference I know of between Catholics and Protestants that matters any is when I was a Protestant, God did not answer my prayer for deliverance while I was proclaiming myself delivered,

There's an awful lot of Protestants out there who claim their prayers are answered by God...Myself included...

138 posted on 04/04/2008 5:44:21 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: papertyger
Nonsense. I don't need to refute it, because you can't define the limits of what that Scripture permits.

God already set the limits...You know what the limits are...The limits are no one...

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

139 posted on 04/04/2008 5:50:06 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Alex Murphy

You are not on my ping list.


140 posted on 04/04/2008 6:28:01 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: papertyger; philetus
Why is it never enough for Protestants Catholics to say they disagree with Catholic the Reformed interpretation of Scripture; they always seem to have to find something wicked about it.

Sounds like a perfect summation of the Council of Trent's Sixth Session.

141 posted on 04/04/2008 6:41:26 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: NYer
You are not on my ping list.

Which explains the constant pings to your Catholic conversion threads (see this ping, and this ping, and this ping for recent examples). Do not ping me to any of your threads again.

142 posted on 04/04/2008 6:49:45 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16)
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To: Running On Empty; ArrogantBustard; annalex

Some of the comments on this thread, even before I went to bed last night, reminded me of an occasion when Larry Lewis spoke to the RCIA class at our parish. My husband and I, who are also both converts, were sponsors in that class.

One of the candidates, a mature man, maybe in his late 40’s, asked Larry about opposition from one’s family, and what could be done. Larry said that it hurt him and Joetta every day to know that their children felt such hostility toward the Catholic Church, and such resentment at the path their parents’ journey had taken. All he could do was suffer it, like Jesus suffered and Mary suffered.


143 posted on 04/04/2008 7:14:21 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: Tax-chick

That happens to very many converts to Catholicism. I experienced actual rejection from my Protestant friends. And it took some time for my father and mother to accept my conversion. However, in the end, both of my parents were ministered to by a priest in the last hours of their life. Deo gratias.


144 posted on 04/04/2008 7:45:08 AM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words:"It's too late"))
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To: Running On Empty

My parents are still Protestants, but they basically shrugged at our conversion. The only family member who was deeply hostile was my husband’s brother, but they’d never gotten along anyway, and it’s blown over.


145 posted on 04/04/2008 7:51:43 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: annalex
I get pretty disappointed when one of these threads devolves into the same conversation on the differences between Catholicism and everything else.

I'd like to encourage anyone who doesn't understand the Catholic relationship with the Blessed Virgin to please read this book. It does a good job of explaining all the Catholic dogmas, scriptural references, various devotions, etc. etc. etc. and is written in such a way that it can be a handy resource for Catholics and non-Catholics alike.



I'm not asking you to believe anything. Believe whatever you want to believe. But if you want to understand, and trust me, if you want to engage in the discussion properly, you should understand the "other side," then please be educated on what the other side believes. This book is a good place to begin.
146 posted on 04/04/2008 8:28:26 AM PDT by BaBaStooey ("Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light." Ephesians 5:14)
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To: BaBaStooey

*sound of crickets*


147 posted on 04/04/2008 9:03:34 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: Tax-chick

148 posted on 04/04/2008 9:21:50 AM PDT by BaBaStooey ("Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light." Ephesians 5:14)
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To: BaBaStooey
Where are the bails? Has he been stumped? Are we stumped? < g >

And what on EARTH is "USA" doing on that wicketkeeper???!!!??? It's . . . unAmerican!

149 posted on 04/04/2008 9:53:44 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: BaBaStooey; AnAmericanMother

I would have completely missed the relevance of that picture if AAM hadn’t commented :-). Some days the world just whizzes by me ...


150 posted on 04/04/2008 12:24:04 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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