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The Catholic Church Changed The Ten Commandments?
Fisheaters | n/a | n/a

Posted on 04/30/2008 7:47:49 AM PDT by Pyro7480

Some Protestants accuse the Catholic Church of having dropped one of the 10 Commandments. "You're idolators! You worship statues! And because you do, your Church dropped the commandment against graven images!"

The truth, of course, is that the Catholic Church did not and could not change the Ten Commandments. Latin Catholics and Protestants simply list them differently. It is incredible that such a pernicious lie could be so easily spread and believed, especially since the truth could easily be determined by just looking into the matter. But the rumor lives.

Now, below are the ways in which Protestants and Roman Catholics enumerate the Commandments:

[See link above or below]

So what the heck? What did happen to the commandment about graven images in the Catholic listing? Did the Church just "drop" a commandment?

Um, no. The Old Testament was around long before the time of the Apostles, and the Decalogue, which is found in three different places in the Bible (Exodus 20 and Exodous 34 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21), has not been changed by the Catholic Church. Chapter and verse divisions are a medieval invention, however, and numbering systems of the Ten Words (Commandments), the manner in which they are grouped, and the "short-hand" used for them, vary among various religious groups. Exodus 20 is the version most often referred to when one speaks of the Ten Commandments, so it will be our reference point here....


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; christianity; tencommandments
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To: Tao Yin

These are not unsupported assumptions. These are the time honored christian traditions handed on to the apostles, entrusted to the church and written about by the early church fathers....there is no assumptions involved.


51 posted on 04/30/2008 9:50:30 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: RexBeach; dschapin; netmilsmom
So, what are Catholic people doing when they appear to be praying to Saints? I ask because all of the devout Catholics that I have met have been wonderfull people and the Catholic church has done a better job on social issues than most protestant churches. But as a protestant some of the Catholic practices seem a little strange to me. Especially the Mary veneration which always seemed like idolotry.

A very, very good question. I really don’t know.

The saints in heaven are not "separated" by death from the community of the Church (Romans 8:38-39) as we are all one Body in Christ (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:12) and Christ "abolished death" (2 Timothy 1:10 ). Therefore, the saints in Heaven can pray for us just as anyone here on Earth can. In fact, better, as they are presently in His Presence. The Virgin Mary asking God to help you should "carry more weight" so to speak than having your best friend on this earth praying for you. In fact, Christ's first public miracle was performed upon the "intercession" of His own mother (John 2:2-11).

Below is a prayer to St. Joseph that dates back to 50 A.D. - long before the last Apostle had died and less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If the early Christians asked the "dead" foster father of Christ to intercede for them and it was "wrong," why is there no "documentation" from the Twelve Apostles "reprimanding" them for this? Surely, the Apostles would have corrected the early Church had It been in err?


PRAYER TO ST. JOSEPH (50 A.D.)

O St. Joseph whose protection is so great, so strong, so prompt before the Throne of God, I place in you all my interests and desires.

O St. Joseph do assist me by your powerful intercession and obtain for me from your Divine Son all spiritual blessings through Jesus Christ, Our Lord; so that having engaged here below your Heavenly power I may offer my Thanksgiving and Homage to the most Loving of Fathers.

O St. Joseph I never weary contemplating you and Jesus asleep in your arms. I dare not approach while He reposes near your heart. Press him in my name and kiss His fine Head for me, and ask Him to return the Kiss when I draw my dying breath.

St. Joseph, Patron of departing souls, pray for us. Amen.


52 posted on 04/30/2008 9:52:27 AM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: Tao Yin

Here is the big question. If you are comfortable in your worship, why do you care what I do?


53 posted on 04/30/2008 9:52:40 AM PDT by netmilsmom (I am very mad at Disney. Give me my James Marsden song!!!!!)
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Im always amazed that when topics like this come up, the entire early church history from the resurrection up to thru the first five hundred years, features the church WHO HAD ACCESS THE SCRIPTURES, THE CHURCH, THE ACTUAL APOSTLES THEMSELVES (the earliest church fathers)AND THEIR SUCCESORS, and wrote about all they were taught and experienced, and NONE say anything disparaging praying to the saints or Mary for intercession, in fact, their writings are full of admonitions to do so..

why do modern day critics ignore all that?


54 posted on 04/30/2008 10:04:54 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: dschapin

I see that someone has responded to this,...pretty much in the same way that I would have.

The difference is that you are actually listening for a response out of genuine curiosity, whereas on some occassions, I have given this same answer to other Christians (we pray “for Saints to pray with and for us”) and they simply do not wish to hear a response. In fact, many are spoiling for a fight.

To be fair to these other denominations, I should say that I’ve also had a bit of a snarl in this area with ex-Catholics who deliberately mangle the Church’s teaching to serve their own desires and sew discontent.

I think that devotion to the Blessed Mother has always been a part of the Catholic Church, but there are certain traditions that I believe were off-loaded by protestants, after the break, as simply being “too Catholic”.

I don’t run into it so much today, but some Christians have a strange way of defining themselves in opposition to my church.

I sub in my son’s school, a private Lutheran school. The staff is mixed, the students are various Christian denominations and it’s an awesome ecumenical environment. It is as it should be between our churches. We pray together. We don’t accentuate areas where we are not together in doctrinal or liturgical terms. My kids say The Pledge to the Christian flag and they learn more about Jesus and the Bible than they possibly could in the hour of religious instruction that they have at home. Of course, additional instruction is given at home, too.

Who can comprehend God’s Holy will and how all Christians may be reuniited again someday? I wish that our churches were together, but things are certainly much better than they were when I was growing up.

In the meantime, we all need to work together as Christians and truly be ecumenical, which does not require that we change our own positions, simply that we respect them.

Unfortunately, FR can be a real flashpoint for religious arguements. I prefer to stay out of them.


55 posted on 04/30/2008 10:10:56 AM PDT by incredulous joe
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To: raygunfan

Most of the people that I know have decided not to obey the ten commandments. How many people do you know that obey the fourth commandment? To remember the Sabbath Day, and to keep it holy, with 6 days to labor and one day to rest.
Sunday is not the Sabbath Day, for it is the First day of the week.


56 posted on 04/30/2008 10:27:13 AM PDT by tessalu
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To: Pyro7480

As a Protestant, I don’t see all that much difference between the two lists, with the exception that most Protestants have changed the wording of the commandment to, “Thou shall not commit murder.”


57 posted on 04/30/2008 10:29:26 AM PDT by quadrant
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To: Tao Yin
How many people can a person listen to at once? Logically, it would be ridiculous to expect one person to be able to really listen to millions of people at the same time.

What makes you think there is "time" in Heaven? Do you know what "eternity" means, theologically?

58 posted on 04/30/2008 10:32:02 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: NYer

St. Joseph is one of my favorite saints. He also helped me sell my house!

I believe he is the patron saint of departing souls.

Thank you for your post!


59 posted on 04/30/2008 10:33:27 AM PDT by RexBeach
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To: Tao Yin
unsupported assumptions required to believe in prayer to the dead

The saints are not dead, as the gospel teaches in numerous times -- they have everlasing life. So it is not an unsupported assumption that they are, in the words of Jesus, "like onto angels". But an angel is one employed by God in serving men on earth. It is not unreasonable to conclude that the saints have a similar function. Indeed, the scripture teaches so; Hebrew 11-12, for example, describes how the martyrs of the Church form a "cloud of witnesses over our head", and says that we should be encouraged by them to endure our own suffering. In Apocalypse 5 and 8 we see prayers of the saints delivered to God.

So this is what we know from scripture. We also, of course, have evidence of the intercession of saints in the miracles they work. "What heavenly bodies [of saints] are like" we indeed don't know, but neither do we presume to know as we pray to them.

60 posted on 04/30/2008 10:37:01 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: NYer
Below is a prayer to St. Joseph that dates back to 50 A.D. - long before the last Apostle had died and less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If the early Christians asked the "dead" foster father of Christ to intercede for them and it was "wrong," why is there no "documentation" from the Twelve Apostles "reprimanding" them for this? Surely, the Apostles would have corrected the early Church had It been in err?

Can you document this claim? I haven't been able to find any prayers to those who died in any of the writings of the early church (I searched up to the 4th century!)

61 posted on 04/30/2008 11:08:51 AM PDT by Truth Defender (History teaches, if we but listen to it; but no one really listens!)
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To: raygunfan
Im always amazed that when topics like this come up, the entire early church history from the resurrection up to thru the first five hundred years, features the church WHO HAD ACCESS THE SCRIPTURES, THE CHURCH, THE ACTUAL APOSTLES THEMSELVES (the earliest church fathers)AND THEIR SUCCESORS, and wrote about all they were taught and experienced, and NONE say anything disparaging praying to the saints or Mary for intercession, in fact, their writings are full of admonitions to do so..

Hmm....can you document any of them encouraging anyone to pray to the dead? I can't seem to find any doing so.

62 posted on 04/30/2008 11:12:18 AM PDT by Truth Defender (History teaches, if we but listen to it; but no one really listens!)
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To: Truth Defender

It is well known that many of the earliest Christian Churches were in fact located in the tombs of saints and martyrs.


63 posted on 04/30/2008 11:25:52 AM PDT by ChurtleDawg (voting only encourages them)
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To: Truth Defender
I don't know about the Chaplet of St. Joseph, but here is a collection fo patriastic quotes:



As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

 

Hermas

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

 

Clement of Alexandria

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

 

Origen

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

 

Cyprian of Carthage

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

 

Anonymous

"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

 

Methodius

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).

 

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

 

Hilary of Poitiers

"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

 

Ephraim the Syrian

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

 

The Liturgy of St. Basil

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

 

Pectorius

"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).

 

Gregory of Nazianz

"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).

 

Gregory of Nyssa

"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

 

John Chrysostom

"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

 

Ambrose of Milan

"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

 

Jerome

"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

 

Augustine

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).

The Intercession of the Saints


64 posted on 04/30/2008 11:30:21 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
patriastic

Now that's a powerful word.

65 posted on 04/30/2008 11:31:46 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Truth Defender

perhaps you are not looking in the right places, here are some examples of the early church fathers and their belief in the praying to saints, etc:

Hermas

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask Him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from Him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from Him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Anonymous

“Hail, Mary!” (inscription at the Church of the Annunciation in Nazareth [A.D. 200]).

Clement of Alexandria

“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage

“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56 [60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous

“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

Anonymous

“Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days” (ibid.).

Methodius

“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto thee do I again return. Thou are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs unto the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing mother, of the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of thee . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

Methodius

“Therefore, we pray thee, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in thee, and who in hymns august celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).

Methodius

“And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with thee, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, Thou art the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God” (ibid.).

Anonymous

“Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger” (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . “ (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers

“To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting” (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian

“Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day” (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

Ephraim the Syrian

“You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that so we may love him” (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil

“By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name” (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Pectorius

“Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]” (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).

Gregory Nazianz

“May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand” (Orations 17 [24] [A.D. 380]).

Gregory Nazianz

“Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . “ (ibid., 18:4).

Gregory of Nyssa

“[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom” (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom

“He that wears the purple [i.e. a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tent-maker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead” (Homilies on 2 Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

John Chrysostom

“When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]” (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan

“May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance” (The Six Days’ Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome

“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine

“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

“There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended” (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

Augustine

“At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

Augustine

“Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ” (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).

Sozomen

“Gregory of Nazianz presided over those who maintain the consubstantiality of the Holy Trinity, and assembled them together in a little dwelling, which had been altered into the form of a house of prayer, by those who held the same opinions and had a like form of worship. It subsequently became one of the most conspicuous in the city, and is so now, not only for the beauty and number of its structures, but also for the advantages accruing to it from the visible manifestations of God. For the power of God was there manifested, and was helpful both in waking visions and in dreams, often for the relief of many diseases and for those afflicted by some sudden transmutation in their affairs. The power was accredited to Mary, the Mother of God, the holy virgin, for she does manifest herself in this way” (Church History 7:5 [A.D. 444]).

Pope Leo I

“Let us rejoice, then, dearly beloved, with spiritual joy, and make our boast over the happy end of this illustrious man in the Lord [the martyr Laurentius] . . . By his prayer and intercession we trust at all times to be assisted . . .” (Sermons 85:4 [A.D. 450]).


66 posted on 04/30/2008 11:37:22 AM PDT by raygunfan
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church history speaks so solidly against protestant theology in so many areas, it is amazing that there are those who still refuse to believe in the catholic church.


67 posted on 04/30/2008 11:40:00 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: Truth Defender

http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp


68 posted on 04/30/2008 11:43:36 AM PDT by ChurtleDawg (voting only encourages them)
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To: Pyro7480

That was a good post and a good website. Thanks!


69 posted on 04/30/2008 11:44:05 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: incredulous joe

The problem though, Joe, is that so many Catholics will TELL you that they do. My mother-in-law (bless her heart) has told me many times that she has prayed TO St. Anthony, St. Joseph, or St. so-and-so.

She doesn’t say that she is asking THEM to pray.

Also, FWIW, and with all due respect, whenever I hear Catholics (and believe me, I greatly respect my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ who are working hard in the harvest)tell me that they PRAY to the Saints, I always wonder why they have this weird list of Saints that never includes the apostles or any of the Old Testament greats like David, Moses, Abraham, or Joseph!

If I were going to ask a host of those in Heaven to pray for ME, I’d be rounding up a few of the heavy hitters like St. Paul and Joseph has always been one of my favorites.


70 posted on 04/30/2008 11:47:39 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: dschapin

Those Chick tracts really ARE awful. I think they do more damage than good.


71 posted on 04/30/2008 11:48:59 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: ChurtleDawg

It’s always nice to see people that actually do a little homework on these things. I’ve done a lot of studying myself. The more I know, the less I know, if you get my drift.


72 posted on 04/30/2008 11:50:44 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: Pyro7480
This was one of the lies that was repeated by the anti-Catholic "Christians" who were popped up during the Papal visit.

They are like a wife who walks away from her husband, but keeps showing up at the door to complain about the husband's lifestyle.

73 posted on 04/30/2008 11:50:48 AM PDT by Hacksaw (I support the San Fran tiger.)
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To: netmilsmom

“It’s a “two people praying together” type thing.”

I think for clarity’s sake it might be better if Catholics then referred to it as ‘praying with’ rather than ‘praying to.’

Praying ‘to’ means the object of the prayer is effecting the request of the prayer. Obviously Catholics do not believe that St. Whatever is himself manifesting divine power, but that St. Whatever might in turn petition Christ. So ‘to’ only, in my opinion, serves to confuse the manner among non-Catholic Christians.

Hopefully the above is stated in a fashion so as not to cause more dispute, since there IMO is already enough of that on FR.


74 posted on 04/30/2008 12:09:26 PM PDT by No.6 (www.fourthfightergroup.com)
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To: No.6

>>Hopefully the above is stated in a fashion so as not to cause more dispute, since there IMO is already enough of that on FR.<<

I agree fully with your statement!
Praying “with” would be better but old habits never die.

And many non-Catholic Christians don’t ask us what we’re doing.

And some don’t care at all as long as we have a good relationship with Our Lord. Those are great people!


75 posted on 04/30/2008 12:24:23 PM PDT by netmilsmom (I am very mad at Disney. Give me my James Marsden song!!!!!)
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To: Paved Paradise

It is confusing but let me give you the words to one of our most powerful prayers

Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God

PRAY for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

We use the words “Have Mercy on us” when we pray to God
“Pray for us” for Mary and any of the saints.

Many non-Catholic just assume and never ask.
Some, when we say what we are doing, tell us, “No, you’re praying to saints.”
It gets old.


76 posted on 04/30/2008 12:30:45 PM PDT by netmilsmom (I am very mad at Disney. Give me my James Marsden song!!!!!)
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To: ChurtleDawg

I still remember the slap to my face for confronting my Baptist Sunday School teacher. I had the temerity to confront her and say “You’re doing wrong. We’re supposed to be here learning about God’s love.” She had been leading the class in chants of “The Catholics are the enemy.” I’ve never seen that kind of thing in any other church, but we were asked to leave because of my “disruptive” behavior.

My ex-brother-in-law decided at one point that he didn’t like the fact that one of my nephews was converting to Catholicism (he’s a fundamentalist). He called the parrish priest and demanded to bar his son from the service. Said he would sue the church for violating his religious rights. He said “I’ve got a good lawyer.” The priest responded “We’re the Catholic Church and we have plenty of lawyers. Bring it on.” Since, my sister has converted to Catholicism.

Strangely enough, this whole thread made me take the time to go look up Martin Luther’s 95 theses.

Paul


77 posted on 04/30/2008 12:47:26 PM PDT by spacewarp (Gun control is a tight cluster grouping in the chest and one in the forehead.)
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To: ChurtleDawg

Well, as they say ignorance is bliss....

Of course they have a hard time dealing with the fact that the more their theologians study and age, the more likely they are to return to the Church... which of course just makes them more angry and likely to lash out at the Vatican.


78 posted on 04/30/2008 12:58:00 PM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: Paved Paradise
I'd like to know when did "praying TO" someone become equated with worshiping them? You can pray to the saints, and pray to your Guardian Angel, without regarding them as a god/goddess/equivalent to the Creator.

In other words, you're being convicted by a preposition, instead of analyzing the posture taken towards the saint or angel. That's what's pertinent.

I always wonder why they have this weird list of Saints that never includes the apostles or any of the Old Testament greats like David, Moses, Abraham, or Joseph!

Because in any case, they are sharing the same Beatific Vision alongside the Apostles and OT saints. They may have lesser or greater glory, but they are an infinitely higher place than we are right now.

If I were going to ask a host of those in Heaven to pray for ME, I’d be rounding up a few of the heavy hitters like St. Paul and Joseph has always been one of my favorites.

You CAN! That's the beauty of it! :-)

79 posted on 04/30/2008 12:59:26 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: spacewarp

I cannot imagine going to Church and hearing other people being labelled “the enemy”. That would be enough for me to find another Church, because that is surely not the way that Christ would want us to behave, particularly when we are guests in His house.

In Church you shouldn’t have enemies. All people, no matter what they believe and what they have done, should be prayed for.


80 posted on 04/30/2008 1:05:57 PM PDT by ChurtleDawg (voting only encourages them)
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To: thefrankbaum
I hope you will not think these to be ungracious questios.

They are not intended as such.

I understand Christians praying for each other.

But my understanding of prayer is that my prayers go directly to God. And I also understand that God listens to all prayers from those who truly seek him with a humble heart -- God surely hears my prayers -- and I'm a wretched sinner -- as surely as He hears the prayers of the most holy person on Earth.

If I want ask a living person who is more holy than I am (and I am surely one of the most wretched sinners) to pray for me, and if I am unable to telephone, email, or speak to him face-to-face, can I say a prayer to him, even though he is still alive? Or would it be more effective to pray to God directly? How many prayers to people -- living or dead -- would it take before God would be able to hear my concerns?

81 posted on 04/30/2008 1:16:11 PM PDT by chs68
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To: dschapin
Especially the Mary veneration which always seemed like idolotry.

You might want to direct that question to Gabriel, who venerated her first. ;-)

82 posted on 04/30/2008 1:36:21 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: chs68

Scripture is filled with admonitions for people to pray for each other in the N.T., including by command of Jesus Himself. If there were no value in asking others to pray for us, or praying for others on their behalf, it wouldn’t be Scriptural.


83 posted on 04/30/2008 1:42:37 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna!)
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To: dschapin; raygunfan; Truth Defender
So, when Christ spoke to John saying “behold your mother” you would interpret him to be ultimately speaking to all of us?

If we as Christians are brothers of Jesus, then, as with Jesus, God is our Father and Mary is our Mother. The bible also teaches, that all Christians become part of the body of Christ. Again this re-emphasises the fact that as Christians become one with Jesus they share with Him, the Fatherhood of God and also, the motherhood of Mary.

The New Testament has two further passages which confirm Mary's motherhood of Christians:

Near the cross of Jesus, stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on the disciple took her into his home.
John 19.25

This is not just a personal bequest of his Mother to John, but, being from the cross itself, has a greater significance. First of all, if Jesus were merely asking John to take care of Mary, He would have made His first request to John. But if you look at the passage, you will see that His first statement is to Mary. The emphasis is therefore upon Mary being Mother to John, not John "looking after" Mary. John here represents all the disciples of Jesus, and hence all Christians, who are given Mary as their Mother.

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring - those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 12.17

This passage shows the Dragon (Satan), making war on the Woman (Mary)'s offspring, following the birth of Jesus. These offspring, clearly represent the community of Christians, who are "the rest of" Mary's children.

84 posted on 04/30/2008 3:45:29 PM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: NYer; dschapin; raygunfan; Truth Defender
took her into his home.

Ouch. That hit a nerve.

St. John was a teenager at the time, most likely. What "home"? This is a good illustration of the danger of those easy to read, smoothed-out translations. Here, in addition to being unlikely to be accurate, this suggests that what transpired between Jesus, Mary and St. John was a commonplace economic transaction, as if Jesus -- Who foreknew His own death -- simply forgot to arrange for the well-being of His Mother and, at the last moment, remembered.

The original, of course, has no "home" whatsoever. "Eis ta idia" translates "into his own" or "with his kind", an awkward phrase, but a deep meaning.

85 posted on 04/30/2008 3:55:29 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Tao Yin; thefrankbaum; raygunfan
Jesus promises to hear our prayers. We have no such promise regarding those who are dead.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.

Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

86 posted on 04/30/2008 3:59:21 PM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: dschapin
Nothing like the witch of Endor.

Catholics really believe in being “one body”...Just because someone has passed off this physical earth doesn't mean they are dead in the Lord. Jesus promised life.

The Saints that we use intercessory pray with are exemplars of a grace under fire with a particular issue.

St. Monica for example was the mother of St. Augustine...She prayed for his conversion for 30 years when he was living as a libertine.

Requesting prayers for your son or daughter when they are not living in one or another sin..would be requesting prayers from someone that had been there.

No different that asking for prayers from a member of your church communion who helped a child through drug addiction ..pray for your child going through the same thing.

That is why the Catholic Church has patron saints for soldiers, nurses, doctors, teachers et all.

The Catholic view is all of our prayers are united in Christ..both living and in heaven.

If you read revelations....The saints are depicted as praying in front of the altar of the Lamb...

87 posted on 04/30/2008 4:18:38 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
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To: NYer

Wow, I didn’t know that there were prayers to saints documented back that far in history.


88 posted on 04/30/2008 4:19:16 PM PDT by dschapin
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To: nina0113

Nina, that is very nicely phrased. I too am often overwhelmed by earthly concerns, so I understand why you chose the patron saint you did.

St. Martha would be proud of you, I think.

Regards,


89 posted on 04/30/2008 4:28:43 PM PDT by VermiciousKnid
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To: dschapin; raygunfan
How do Catholics interpret the account found in Matthew 12:46-50. Here is what it says in the NIV version.

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.

Apologies if this has already been answered. I am working my way gradually through this thread. Now, step back a few passages and look at the whole picture.

First, Mary stays mostly in the background. But in the case of the Wedding at Cana, she steps for a moment into the light. In the Gospel we read: "On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage." Take careful note that Mary seems to have had the main invitation and The Lord was "also invited". Mary, however, redirects everyone back to the Lord. Second, in all the moments in the Gospel in which Mary appears, she is seen to take in what happens in regard to her Son and herself and then contemplate them in silence before doing anything. After the Angel departed from her, she journeyed to see Elizabeth contemplating what happened before she burst out in her great Canticle. At the Presentation she contemplated the things Simeon told her. You will find this pattern again and again. At Cana Mary sees how the time, the right moment, had finally arrived for Jesus to make Himself known in public. Mary contemplated everything and, when all was prepared, she spoke and then stepped back into the shadows. She always redirects our gaze to her Son. As Catholics we know with certain and divinely guided Faith that Christ instituted sacraments which would be the ordinary means for us to obtain the graces opening the way to salvation. God the Father created marriage in the creation of Adam and Eve and the mandate and different roles He gave them. We know that Christ’s presence at the Wedding at Cana did sanctify that marriage and, in so doing, sanctifies Christian marriage contracted in Christ in and under His Church, raising marriage to the dignity of a sacrament.

90 posted on 04/30/2008 4:29:24 PM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: Radl

Will put your wife on my prayer list.

And you too...


91 posted on 04/30/2008 4:36:02 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
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To: netmilsmom

Thanks.


92 posted on 04/30/2008 4:39:15 PM PDT by Radl
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To: annalex
The original, of course, has no "home" whatsoever. "Eis ta idia" translates "into his own" or "with his kind", an awkward phrase, but a deep meaning.

Thank you for the clarification. Koine Greek?

93 posted on 04/30/2008 4:41:22 PM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: Tao Yin

You think heaven is a material place with the same rules of physics as on earth?


94 posted on 04/30/2008 4:42:34 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
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To: NYer; All

Thanks for all the great replies. I still am uncomfortable with parts of Catholic theology but ya’ll have given me a lot to think about. I certainly see all of you as brothers and sisters in Christ and I am very glad that the level of animosity between Catholics and Protestants is not what it sounds like it was back I when I was too young to remember.


95 posted on 04/30/2008 4:43:15 PM PDT by dschapin
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To: Radl; TASMANIANRED
Will put your wife on my prayer list. And you too...

Ditto!

96 posted on 04/30/2008 4:44:34 PM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: TASMANIANRED

Thank you tasmanianred.


97 posted on 04/30/2008 4:44:50 PM PDT by Radl
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To: dschapin
Catholics and Protestants have different meanings for the word “pray”. The word “pray” comes from the Latin word “precari” which means to ask.

Pray doesn't necessarily mean worship. We Catholics (and the Orthodox, the Coptics, etc) ask the saints for help, but we worship God alone.

98 posted on 04/30/2008 4:52:10 PM PDT by Nihil Obstat (pray for the Christians in the Holy Land)
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To: Radl

your family is in our prayers. Lord have Mercy.


99 posted on 04/30/2008 4:53:50 PM PDT by Nihil Obstat (pray for the Christians in the Holy Land)
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To: Pyro7480; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

100 posted on 04/30/2008 4:57:53 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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