Skip to comments.The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
Posted on 07/02/2008 1:51:40 PM PDT by NYer
ISSUE: Catholic Bibles contain seven more Old Testament (46) books than Protestant Bibles (39). Catholics refer to these seven books as the deuterocanon (second canon), while Protestants refer to them as apocrypha, a term used pejoratively to describe non-canonical books. Protestants also have shorter versions of Daniel and Esther. Why are there differences?
RESPONSE: Catholic Bibles contain all the books that have been traditionally accepted by Christians since Jesus time. Protestant Bibles contain all those books, except those rejected by the Protestant Reformers in the 1500s. The chief reason Protestants rejected these biblical books was because they did not support Protestant doctrines, for example, 2 Maccabees supports prayer for the dead. The term canon means rule or guideline, and in this context means which books belong in the Bible (and, by implication, which do not).
The Catholic Old Testament follows the Alexandrian canon of the Septuagint, the Old Testament which was translated into Greek around 250 B.C. The Protestant Reformers follows the Palestinian canon of Scripture (39 books), which was not officially recognized by Jews until around 100 A.D.
DISCUSSION: Prior to Jesus time, the Jews did not have a sharply defined, universal canon of Scripture. Some groups of Jews used only the first five books of the Old Testament (the Pentateuch); some used only the Palestinian canon (39 books); some used the Alexandrian canon (46 books), and some, like the Dead Sea community, used all these and more. The Palestinian and Alexandrian canons were more normative than the others, having wider acceptance among orthodox Jews, but for Jews there was no universally defined canon to include or exclude the deuterocanonical books around 100 A.D.
The Apostles commissioned by Jesus, however, used the Septuagint (the Old Testament in Greek which contained the Alexandrian canon) most of the time and must have accepted the Alexandrian canon. For example, 86 percent of Old Testament quotes in the Greek New Testament come directly from the Septuagint, not to mention numerous linguistic references. Acts 7 provides an interesting piece of evidence that justifies the Apostolic use of the Septuagint. In Acts 7:14 St. Stephen says that Jacob came to Joseph with 75 people. The Masoretic Hebrew version of Genesis 46:27 says 70, while the Septuagints says 75, the number Stephen used. Following the Apostles' example, Stephen clearly used the Septuagint. (We also know from other ancient Christian documents, like the Didache and Pope St. Clements Letter to the Corinthians, that the apostles successors not only used the Septuagint, but quote from all of the books in the Alexandrian canon as the authoritative word of God.)
There is no divinely inspired table of contents for the Bible, therefore, Christians need an authority, like the infallible Church established by Christ, to discern which books are the divinely inspired ones. (Indeed, even if there were such a table of contents list, we would need an authority to tell if the list itself were inspired.) Even many Evangelical Protestant Bible scholars admit this:
While we know that at the time of Jesus there were different canons of the Old Testament because the canonical process was not yet complete, the glorious truth is that God has invited humans to be partners in the putting together of Scripture. I think the implications are that you cannot have Scripture without the community of faith [in other words, the Church]. Its not just a private revelation. God gives us Scripture, but then the [Church], by Gods guidance, has to choose whats in and whats out.
Why dont the Jews accept the Alexandrian canon now, though? They follow after their predecessors, who around 100 A.D. decided that the Septuagint which followed the Alexandrian canon had at least two problems: First, it was written in Greek, which after the destruction of Jerusalem by Gentiles seemed un-Jewish or even anti-Jewish. Second, Christians, following the lead of their apostolic leaders, widely used the Septuagint, especially in apologetics to the Jews; thus, non-Christian Jews wanted to deny the value of some of its books, such as the Book of Wisdom, which contains a profound prophecy of Christs death.
In the words of Protestant Septuagint scholar Sir Lancelot Benton:
The veneration with which the Jews had treated this [Septuagint] (as it is shown in the case of [Jewish historians] Philo and Josephus), gave place to a very contrary feeling when they found how it could be used against them [i.e., in Christian apologetics]: hence they decried the [Septuagint] version, and sought to deprive it of any authority.
What are the classic Protestant arguments against the seven deuterocanonical books? Their major objection is that the deuterocanonicals contain doctrines and practices, such as the doctrine of purgatory and praying for the dead, that are irreconcilable with authentic Scripture. This objection, of course, begs the question. If the deuterocanon is inspired Scripture, then those doctrines and practices are not opposed to Scripture but part of Scripture. Another objection is that the deuterocanonical books contain nothing prophetic. This is clearly proved false by comparing Wisdom 1:16-2:1 and 2:12-24 to Matthews passion account, especially Matthew 27:40-43.
Many Protestants also argue that, because neither Jesus nor His apostles quote the deuterocanonical books, they should be left out of the Bible. This claim ignores that Jesus nor His apostles do not quote Ecclesiastes, Esther or the Song of Songs, nor even mention them in the New Testament; yet Protestants accept these books. Furthermore, the New Testament quotes and refers to many non-canonical books, like pagan poetry quoted by Paul and Jewish stories referred to by Jude, which neither Protestants nor Catholics accept as Scripture. Clearly New Testament quotation, or the lack thereof, cannot be a reliable indicator of Old Testament canonicity. (This also begs the question of which books belong in the New Testament and which do not.)
Other Protestants argue that todays Jews do not accept the deuterocanon. This objection is problematic for two reasons. The first is why the Jews reject those books (see above). These books are rejected by Jews on the basis of bias against Christianity, something to which Protestants should not want to support. The second problem is this: Why should Christians accept the authority of post-Church-establishment, non-Christians instead of the Apostles of the Church that Christ founded? Would God found a Church and then let it fall into grave error concerning the Old Testament canon? This is an untenable position for any Christian to take.
Others point to St. Jerome's rejection of deuterocanonical material. While Jerome was originally suspicious of the extra Old Testament books, which he only knew in Greek, he fully accepted the judgment of the Church on the matter, as shown in a letter written in 402 A.D.:
What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? . . . I was not relating my own personal views [when I wrote the objections of the Jews to the longer form of Daniel in my introduction], but rather the remarks that [the Jews] are wont to make against us [Christians who accept the longer form of Daniel], (Against Rufinius, 11:33, emphasis added).
Remember that Protestants reject the longer, Alexandrian version of Daniel; St. Jerome did not.
Still more Protestants claim that the Church did not authoritatively define the canon of Scripture until the Council of Trent and, since that Council was a reaction to the Reformation, the deuterocanon can be considered an addition to the original Christian canon. This is also incorrect. Regional councils of the early Church had enumerated the books of the Bible time and again prior to the Reformation, always upholding the current Catholic canon. Examples include the Council of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), and the Third and Fourth Councils of Carthage (397, 418). All of these affirmed the Catholic canon as we know it today, while none affirmed the Protestant canon.
This exact canon also had the total support of important Church Fathers like St. Augustine (Christian Instruction, 397). In 405, Pope St. Innocent also taught the Catholic canon in a letter to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, the same year that St. Jerome completed the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible at the request of the Popes. A thousand years later, while seeking reunion with the Copts, the Church affirmed the same canon at the ecumenical Council of Florence in 1442. When the canon became a serious issue following the Protestant schism in the early 1500s, Trent dogmatically defined what the Church had consistently taught for more than 1,000 years.
R.C. Sproul, a prominent Protestant theologian, asserts that we must accept the Bible as a fallible collection of infallible books, and many Protestants find this idea appealing. There are serious problems with this position however. The chief problem is this: While it acknowledges that infallible books exist somewhere in the world, it implies that we can have no guarantee that all, or indeed any, of those infallible books are in the Bibles Christians use. If the collection is fallible, the contents are not necessarily the books which are infallible. How do we know, then, that John's Gospel, which all Christians accept, is legitimately Scripture, while the so-called Gospel of Thomas, which all Christians reject, is not? Sprouls statement points to the need for an authority outside the Bible so that we can have an infallible collection of infallible books. It is ultimately contradictory to believe in the Bibles infallibility, and the reliability of its canon, without believing in the Churchs infallibility.
To answer the question, Who decided which books are in the Bible? we must inevitably recognize the authoritative Church that Christ founded, the Church that infallibly discerned with God's guidance which books belonged and which didnt. This means recognizing that the longer Old Testament canon is the correct one.
Why was it so necessary for the Catholic Church to keep the Bible from being translated? To burn people who seeked religious freedom? WTH?
Mark, we need the list.
I actually didn’t know that they tried to keep it from being translated but common sense would say that IF what you say is true it was because they knew that every Tom, Dick and Harry would interpret the Bible according to themselves and not the Truth. The Church had been dealing with hersies from the get go and was probably wise enough to know what would happen and it did.
***Mark, we need the list.***
List? List of Judaizers? List of retroactive Reformation apologists? But I digress.
http://users.rcn.com/lanat/biblehistory.htm is most helpful.
The Catholic Church was the “inventor” of the Bible as we know it... What does that mean? In the earliest days of the Christian Church, there came to be literally hundreds, if not thousands, of documents written, all purporting to be “scriptural”. It was the Church, which came to be known as the Catholic (”Universal”) Church, that designated which of these writings were to be considered “valid”, or as we call it, “inspired canon”. So, in a very real, very valid sense, the Catholic Church “invented” and then protected” the Bible that the entire Christian world knows and loves. This is simply established historical fact.
A lot of Protestants have no idea about any of this. They may, perhaps, know that the Catholic Bible is somehow “different”, but they may not be quite sure in exactly what way, or may have mistaken ideas regarding how that came to be. Some even think, amazingly, that the Catholic Church added books during the Reformation, but this is simply not true. The books of the Catholic Bible are the same books that have been considered official canon since the official list of which books were to be considered holy scripture, and which were not, were first established, back amongst the earliest Christians. Yes, back when there was only One Holy Church. (And if you were Christian, you were Catholic, because there was only one Church, the “Universal” Church - because that’s what the word “catholic” means!).
The Protestant Church, and all it’s “multiplicative proclivities created” different variations that we have today, didn’t even exist until the 1500’s... prior to that there was only the so-called “Catholic” Bible. Actually, at that point, it was simply “the” Bible... the Christian Bible. There was no other. People forget that. Or they think that somehow the reformers “improved” the Bible! (And if that’s what you think - ask yourself - Where in Heaven or on earth would they get that authority to begin with? And if they didn’t get that authority from the hand of Christ Himself.... they how dare they do that?)
So, where did the Bible actually come from? We know that there existed a body of Hebrew Scriptures, contained, book by book, on scrolls, which were (and still are today) read in the synagogues. Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah in the synagogue in Nazareth as we can see from Luke 4:16-21. We call that Holy Scripture the “Old” Testament.
There also existed translation of these scriptures in Greek called the Septuagint (from the Greek word for “seventy,” a reference to the tradition that seventy scholars all came up with the same translation from Hebrew into Greek). This is the version of the Old Testament from which the New Testament authors get their quotes.Whenever Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John quote the Old Testament, or have Jesus or anyone else quoting Scripture (which when they refer to “scripture” is always the Old Testament), they are always talking about the Septuagint. We can tell this because the Greek translation was different than the Hebrew translation. Not that it differed in form. It differed in that it had extra books! (Sound familiar?)
The Septuagint includes all the writings now included in the Catholic Old Testament. The 7 books - Tobias (Tobit), Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, I and II Maccabees, and three other documents - the supplement to Esther, from chapter 10:4, to the end, the Canticle of the Three Youths (Song of the Three Children) in Daniel , chapter 3, and the stories of Susanna and the Elders and Bel & the Dragon, forming the closing chapters of the Christian version of the Book of Daniel - are not included in the Hebrew writings. They are also not included in Protestant Bibles! These writings came to be called “deuterocanonical texts”. They were the same books as the Jews of Palestine used, called the Septuagint, the same books that Jesus and the Apostles read. The same books that the early Christians read. But why did the Hebrews take them out of their scripture?
Rivalry was sharp and acrimonious amongst the Jews of the time, and different rabbis had followers of their different points of view, with a result that was very close to forming “denominations”. Early Christians were seen as just another “Jewish cult” or denomination, at first.
The Jewish Council of Jamnia in A.D. 90 effectively terminated the disputes between rival rabbinic schools concerning the canonicity of the Jewish books of Scripture. Since the followers of Christ, who came to be known as “The Christians”, used the Septuagint, the Greek translation, there was a movement to ban all the Greek translations for the “purity” of the Hebrew translations, and thus discredit the Christian movement to Jews.
The move to try to solidify the Jewish Canon came to center around the so-called “Masoretic Text”, which is in Hebrew. Scriptural books whose only existing editions were “mere” translations in Greek were considered “less authentic”, and were not included in the “official” Hebrew Canon. So if no copy could be found in Hebrew, they were not allowed in the synagogues. It was thought that by tossing out some of the “Christian” scriptures, it would slow down the spread of this “cult”. But even more, this was the one time that Jewish leaders attempted to centralize their canon of scripture. There really is no central authority of Jewish doctrine that states “this” is canon, and “this” is not.
The Council of Jamnia in AD 90 took place three generations AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ, and well after the time of the Apostles. The early Christian Church used the Greek-language Scriptures as did the Jews of the time of Christ (some of whom spoke no Hebrew), which was the Septuagint, which consisted of the books of what we now call the Old Testament AND the disputed Deuterocanonical Books. The Council of Jamnia effectively drew the line between Jewish Scripture and Christian Scripture once and for all.
During the early centuries of the Church, there were many documents that claimed to hold “true” Christian teaching. Due to misinterpretation of various teachings, it became important to identify which were truly canonical and “inspired”, and which were not.
For instance - the very first version of an extremely spurious “New Testament”, in AD 140, was written by an anti-Semite, Marcion, who deleted all references to Jesus’ Judaism. This event convinced the leaders of the Church that there was a dire need to authoritatively decree which books were to be considered truly inspired.
Selection of New Testament books as canonical was slow, however. It was felt that such a monumental task should not be taken lightly. The present official Canon appeared for the first time in print in the Festal Epistle of Athanasius (A.D. 367). Pope Damascus I, at the Council of Rome in 382, stated the canon of Scripture, and listed the exact same books we have today.
In the Synod of Hippo (A.D. 393) this same Canon was officially stated and adopted for all the Church. This was the entire Church - East and West - there was not yet any split or schism in the heart of Christ yet. All of Christianity had one Holy Book. And it was this scripture that it maintained, whole, and unblemished, until the 16th century.
However, it is evident that the initial canon in the 4th century found many opponents in Africa, since it took three ratifying councils there at brief intervals - Hippo in A.D. 393, and Carthage in AD 397 and then again in A.D. 419 - to reiterate the official catalogs. This canon was once again ratified by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787; and then again confirmed and ratified by the Council of Florence in 1442. But if was first officially declared, for all time, as the official canon of the entire Church at the Synod of Hippo in 393 AD, and has never changed.
Ironically, it was not the deuterocanonical books that were the stumbling point, initially, but apparently the NT Scripture of the Book of Hebrews. Once this agreement on Canon was reached in it’s final version, all major Christian churches used the same Canon. Basically, the Canon proclaimed in AD 367 by Athanasius is the same exact version of the Bible that the Catholic Church uses today. Remember, at the time there WAS only ONE Church, and this was the Bible that all Christians used.
In about the 4th Century CE, as the Greek language began to die out as the trade language of the Western Empire, it became evident that there was a need for translation of the Christian Scriptures into Latin, which, as you may remember, was at that time the tongue of the common people of the West. The scholar Jerome undertook the task. Jerome used the best texts he could find (including Hebrew when available), and produced the so-called “Vulgate” (Common Language) Bible. Again, these included the Deuterocanonical books, and this Bible was considered the authoritative translation for centuries. The best known English Catholic version of the Bible, the Douay-Rheims (1582-1609/10), and its revision by Bishop Challoner (1750) were based on the Latin Vulgate.
When Martin Luther translated the Bible into German, it was the entire Catholic Bible that he translated. In fact, the composer Brahms set some of Luther’s deuterocanonical texts to music in his “Vier Ernste Gesange.” Some folks are aware that Luther placed the deuterocanonical books at the end of his Bible, with comments. Luther, however, only later removed the deuterocanonicals from the Old Testament, and put them in an appendix without page numbers - along with Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. Initially, he simply transcribed what was accepted by all Christians of the time as the entire Bible. Later, he acted on his own initiative to remove books he felt were “improper”. Other Protestants reacted strongly to Luther’s presumption, and replaced the books that Luther rearranged back into the New Testament but felt comfortable with his desecration of the Old Testament, because those were the “Jewish books” - and they felt his logic of following the guidelines of the Jewish elders at Jamnia, made some sort of sense - so they left out the deuterocanonicals from the Old Testament. Today, many Protestants have the completely mistaken impression that Catholics added books to the Bible, when you can see, it was the other way around, Protestants removed them!
Luther was opposed to the OT Deuterocanonical books on the grounds that the Jewish council of Jamnia rejected them. This was considered a “legitimate” argument by the early Reformers, despite centuries of acceptance by the early Christian Church, until 1947, when the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered. When those writings were finally translated, it was found found that they contain writings, in Hebrew, from every Old Testament book (except Esther), including all of the Deuterocanonical books. The Dead Sea scrolls date back to before the time of Christ. This adds to the evidence against the popular argument that the Catholics “added” the Deuterocanonical books to the Bible during the Reformation. While the Dead Sea scrolls are not considered to add anything to canonical scripture, they do help to verify the authenticity of Deuterocanonical books and the validity of their rightful place in the Bible. In addition, scripture scholars have no doubt at all that the early Christians accepted the Deuterocanonical books as part of its Canon of Sacred Scriptures. For instance, Origen (d. 245) stated that these books were considered inspired scripture, and affirmed the use of these books among Christians.
The Council of Trent, in response to the Protestant violation of the Bible by deleting the deuterocanonical books, declared an official listing of each individual book, but it certainly did not add those books to the canon. Those who state that there was no official canon until Trent misunderstand. Trent was reiterating the canon for all time. They were amongst the very first accepted books of the Bible. They had been accepted as canon for centuries. And in fact, Martin Luther and the other Reformers accepted the presence of those books for decades before the Council of Trent, but then deleted them, when they left the Church, on their own initiative.
The apparent reason for the dropping of the deuterocanonical texts is that they support certain Catholic doctrines rejected by the Reformers. For instance, in 2 Maccabees 12:41-45 there is a reference to praying for the dead, a Catholic practice rejected by Luther. Because Luther rejected that practice, it was necessary to deny the authority of the Books of the Maccabees, and he also attempted to delete Hebrews as well, because there are references to that text. The reason for Luther’s treatment of James had to do with the “faith vs. works” issue.
Nor is it at all true, as some mistakenly think, that the Catholic Church was opposed to the printing and distribution of Bible translations in “native” languages. Part of the problem was that Bibles were not widely circulated. They were written by hand, and very, very expensive. Many of the common folk couldn’t read, either. Bibles, and books in general did not become widely used by the general population until after the invention of the printing press.
John Wycliffe with his 1382 version of the Bible was not the first person to give English speaking people the Bible in their own tongue, as a popular misguided myth would have it. We have copies of the work of Caedmon from the 7th century, and that of the Venerable Bede, Eadhelm, Guthlac, and Egbert from the 8th (all in Saxon, the prevalent language at that time). From the 9th and 10th centuries come the translations of King Alfred the Great and Aelfric, Archbishop of Canterbury. Early English versions include that of Orm around 1150, the Salus Animae (1250), and the translations of William Shoreham, Richard Rolle (d.1349), and John Trevisa (c.1360).
Other languages are also represented in the list of “vernacular” Catholic Bibles. We can find a translation of the Bible from 1290, written in French, a translation into Dutch (about 1270), and a translation into German (about 1350). Between 1466 and the onset of the Protestant Reformation in 1517, at least fourteen editions appeared in High German, and five in Low German. From 1450 to 1550, for example, there appeared (with express permission from Rome) more than 40 Italian editions or translations of the Bible and eighteen French editions, as well as others in Bohemian, Belgian, Russian, Danish, Norwegian, Polish, and Hungarian. Spain published editions in Spanish starting in 1478.
It is important to remember, that ALL of these vernacular Bibles were “Catholic” Bibles. Remember, the Reformation had not yet occurred. The key issue for the Catholic Church was NOT translating the Bible into vernacular languages, as some say, but simply insuring that the translations were accurate translations.
The King James version was written much later than any these, in 1611. So, as you can see, it is most assuredly not the first Bible written in English. And sad to say, no matter how accurate or inaccurate it is, by translation - and there are scholars that claim it is seriously flawed in it’s translation, while many consider it the “purest” version - be that as it may, it is still missing those aforementioned books, and is therefore, incomplete.
Development of the Old Testament Canon
1000-50 BC: The Old Testament books are written.
200 BC: Rabbis translate the OT from Hebrew to Greek, a translation called the “Septuagint” (abbreviation: “LXX”). The LXX ultimately includes 46 books.
AD 30-100: Christians use the LXX as their scriptures.
AD 90: Jewish rabbis meet at the Council of Javneh and decide to include in their canon only 39 books, since only these can be found in Hebrew. This “officially” separates Jewish Scripture from Christian Scripture.
AD 400: Jerome translates the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into Latin (called the “Vulgate”).
AD 1536: Luther translates the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into German. Initially, his version is exactly the same as the Catholic Bible. Later, he decides that, since Jews wrote the Old Testament, theirs is the correct canon; he puts the extra 7 books in an appendix that he calls the “Apocrypha.” and comments that they are “useful”. Luther also wanted to eliminate, or at least put in his Apocrypha several New Testament books - the books of Jude, Hebrews, James, and Revelations, but his fellow Protestant Reformers are appalled, and these are put back in by other Protestant reformers.
AD 1546: The Catholic Council of Trent, in response to the changes in the Bible by the Protestant Reformers, re-affirms the canonicity of all 46 books.
Development of the New Testament Canon
AD 51-125: The New Testament books are written, but during this same period other early Christian writings are produced—for example, the Didache (c. AD 70), 1Clement (c. 96), the Epistle of Barnabas (c. 100), and the 7 letters of Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110).
AD 140: Marcion, a businessman in Rome, teaches that there were two Gods: Yahweh, the cruel God of the OT, and Abba, the kind father of the NT. So Marcion eliminates the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he is anti-Semitic, keeps from the NT only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke’s gospel (he deletes references to Jesus’ Jewishness). Marcion’s “New Testament”—the first to be compiled—forces the mainstream Church to decide on a core canon: the four gospels and letters of Paul.
AD 200’s: But the periphery of the canon is not yet determined. According to one list, compiled at Rome c. AD 200 (the Muratorian Canon), the NT consists of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter.
AD 367: The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Easter letter of 367.
AD 382: Pope Damascus, lists canon of Scripture, both Old and New Testament books in their present number and order at the Council of Rome. This is exactly the same list as written by Athanasius, and the same list as we have today.
AD 300 - 400’s: Councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419), again define the same list of books as inspired. This canon was once again reaffirmed by Pope Innocent I in (405); and again by the Council of Carthage in (419)
AD 787: The second Council of Nicaea is held, which again confirms the list of inspired books.
AD 1442: At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognizes the 27 books of the New Testament, though does not declare them unalterable.
AD 1536: In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removes 4 NT books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations) from their normal order and places them at the end, stating that they are less than canonical.
AD 1546: At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirms once and for all the full list of 27 New Testament books as traditionally accepted.
We are not Jews; neither are we anything else but Christians of the Church. Removing the Word of God from Scripture carries a severe penalty. Who here is willing to risk it? Adding to the Word of God carries a severe penalty. Martin Luther and Joseph Smith have risked it. I suspect that their following may incur the repercussions of following their editing.
Read this and give me a reasoned debate.
LOL, that was good and very relevant but I meant the one that shows that the NT quotes the Septuagent that messed up a certain dr.s web tv.
From what I know of the difference between the Catholic Bible and the Protestant, it isn't enough to burn people over. Of course, the Inquisition answered many of those questions. It was about the Church's power which is why our founders were so careful to separate Church and State.
***LOL, that was good and very relevant but I meant the one that shows that the NT quotes the Septuagent that messed up a certain dr.s web tv.***
The health of the good dr’s web tv is of overriding concern to me and therefore I shall search diligently.
I guess you can’t or won’t give a reasoned debate, oh well. It would help if you had some facts rather than only your own opinion.
DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
Great as his mercy is his punishment; he judges men, each according to his deeds.
1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
1 Macc. 2:52
Was not Abraham found faithful in trial, and it was reputed to him as uprightness?
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge.
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
2 Maccabees 7
It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king, to force them to eat pork in violation of God’s law... When he was completely maimed but still breathing, the king ordered them to carry him to the fire and fry him. As a cloud of smoke spread from the pan, the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die bravely, saying such words as these: “The Lord God is looking on, and he truly has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his canticle, when he protested openly with the words, ‘And he will have pity on his servants...’” Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them.” Thus he too died undefiled, putting all his trust in the Lord. The mother was last to die, after her sons.
ABRAHAM, father of many peoples, kept his glory without stain:
As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”
For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing him who is, and from studying the works did not discern the artisan; But either fire, or wind, or the swift air, or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water, or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods. Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original source of beauty fashioned them. Or if they were struck by their might and energy, let them from these things realize how much more powerful is he who made them. For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original author, by analogy, is seen. But yet, for these the blame is less; For they indeed have gone astray perhaps, though they seek God and wish to find him. For they search busily among his works, but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair. But again, not even these are pardonable. For if they so far succeeded in knowledge that they could speculate about the world, how did they not more quickly find its LORD? But doomed are they, and in dead things are their hopes, who termed gods things made by human hands: Gold and silver, the product of art, and likenesses of beasts, or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Wis. 5:17-20 He shall take his zeal for armor and he shall arm creation to requite the enemy; He shall don justice for a breastplate and shall wear sure judgment for a helmet; He shall take invincible rectitude as a shield and whet his sudden anger for a sword, And the universe shall war with him against the foolhardy.
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Instead of a spring, when the perennial river was troubled with impure blood as a rebuke to the decree for the slaying of infants, You gave them abundant water in an unhoped-for way, once you had shown by the thirst they then had how you punished their adversaries.
When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.
Therefore I prayed, and prudence was given me; I pleaded and the spirit of Wisdom came to me.
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Spend your money for your brother and friend, and hide it not under a stone to perish; Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold. Store up almsgiving in your treasure house, and it will save you from every evil;
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
Do to no one what you yourself dislike.
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you
The fruit of a tree shows the care it has had
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
You will drive them like sheep that have no shepherd,
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
“Be brave, my daughter. May the Lord of heaven grant you joy in place of your grief. Courage, my daughter.” Then she left.
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
“The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.”
For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
For she had been married to seven husbands, but the wicked demon Asmodeus killed them off before they could have intercourse with her, as it is prescribed for wives. So the maid said to her: “You are the one who strangles your husbands! Look at you! You have already been married seven times, but you have had no joy with any one of your husbands. I have given her in marriage to seven men, all of whom were kinsmen of ours, and all died on the very night they approached her. But now, son, eat and drink. I am sure the Lord will look after you both.” Tobiah answered, “I will eat or drink nothing until you set aside what belongs to me.” Raguel said to him: “I will do it. She is yours according to the decree of the Book of Moses. Your marriage to her has been decided in heaven! Take your kinswoman; from now on you are her love, and she is your beloved. She is yours today and ever after. And tonight, son, may the Lord of heaven prosper you both. May he grant you mercy and peace.”
Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
1 Macc. 1:54
On the fifteenth day of the month Chislev, in the year one hundred and forty-five, the king erected the horrible abomination upon the altar of holocausts, and in the surrounding cities of Judah they built pagan altars.
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—keeping before their eyes the lawless outrage perpetrated by the Gentiles against the holy Place and the affliction of the humiliated city, as well as the subversion of their ancestral way of life.
1 Macc. 2:28
Thereupon he fled to the mountains with his sons, leaving behind in the city all their possessions.
Matt. 24:16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ “ Wisdom 2:18
For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
The offshoot of violence will not flourish, for the root of the godless is on sheer rock;
Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
in the day of judgment he will punish them: He will send fire and worms into their flesh, and they shall burn and suffer forever.”
hell, where “ ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’
Then Uzziah said to her: “Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the creator of heaven and earth, who guided your blow at the head of the chief of our enemies.
In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!
The thrones of the arrogant God overturns and establishes the lowly in their stead.
He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble.
Then Anna ran up to her son, threw her arms around him, and said to him, “Now that I have seen you again, son, I am ready to die!” And she sobbed aloud.
“Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace.
Here come your sons whom you once let go, gathered in from the east and from the west By the word of the Holy One, rejoicing in the glory of God.
People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Many have fallen by the edge of the sword, but not as many as by the tongue.
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
God of my fathers, LORD of mercy. you who have made all things by your word
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Who has gone up to the heavens and taken her, or brought her down from the clouds?
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade.
“Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
He who eats of me will hunger still, he who drinks of me will thirst for more;
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
1 Macc. 4:5
Then Judas and his brothers and the entire congregation of Israel decreed that the days of the dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness on the anniversary every year for eight days, from the twenty-fifth day of the month Chislev.
Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter,
Their twigs shall be broken off untimely, and their fruit be useless, unripe for eating, and fit for nothing.
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
For he is a God of justice, who knows no favorites.
Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
But doomed are they, and in dead things are their hopes, who termed gods things made by human hands: Gold and silver, the product of art, and likenesses of beasts, or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand.
“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill.
For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing him who is, and from studying the works did not discern the artisan;
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
And in return for their senseless, wicked thoughts, which misled them into worshiping dumb serpents and worthless insects, You sent upon them swarms of dumb creatures for vengeance;
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
They no longer safeguard either lives or pure wedlock; but each either waylays and kills his neighbor, or aggrieves him by adultery. 25 And all is confusion-blood and murder, theft and guile, corruption, faithlessness, turmoil, perjury, 26 Disturbance of good men, neglect of gratitude, besmirching of souls, unnatural lust, disorder in marriage, adultery and shamelessness. 27 For the worship of infamous idols is the reason and source and extremity of all evil.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
Wisdom 2:24 But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
For what man knows God’s counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?
1 Cor. 2:16
“For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?”
Be not drawn after every enjoyment, neither become a glutton for choice foods, 29 For sickness comes with overeating, and gluttony brings on biliousness. 30 Through lack of self-control many have died, but the abstemious man prolongs his life.
1 Cor. 6:12-13
“Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13”Food for the stomach and the stomach for food”—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body
Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original source of beauty fashioned them.
1 Cor. 8:5-6
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God
The cloud overshadowed their camp; and out of what had before been water, dry land was seen emerging: Out of the Red Sea an unimpeded road, and a grassy plain out of the mighty flood.
1 Cor. 10:1
For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
For you provoked your Maker with sacrifices to demons, to no-gods;
1 Cor. 10:20
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
2 Macc. 12:43-45.
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
1 Cor. 15:29
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
He shall don justice for a breastplate and shall wear sure judgment for a helmet;
Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
2 Macc. 12:15
But the King of kings aroused the anger of Antiochus against the scoundrel.
1 Timothy 6:15
15which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Therefore shall they receive the splendid crown, the beauteous diadem, from the hand of the LORD- For he shall shelter them with his right hand, and protect them with his arm.
2 Tim. 4:8
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
Your all-powerful word from heaven’s royal throne bounded, a fierce warrior, into the doomed land,
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
(ENOCH walked with the LORD and was taken up, that succeeding generations might learn by his example.)
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
Depressed mind, saddened face, broken heart—this from an evil wife. Feeble hands and quaking knees— from a wife who brings no happiness to her husband.
Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees.
Be swift to hear, but slow to answer. 14 If you have the knowledge, answer your neighbor; if not, put your hand over your mouth. 15 Honor and dishonor through talking! A man’s tongue can be his downfall.
My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
2 My son, conduct your affairs with humility, and you will be loved more than a giver of gifts.
Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom.
Spend your money for your brother and friend, and hide it not under a stone to perish; 11 Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold.
Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
Let us oppress the needy just man; let us neither spare the widow nor revere the old man for his hair grown white with time. 11 But let our strength be our norm of justice; for weakness proves itself useless. 12 2 3 Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training.
You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.
Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. 6 2 As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself.
1 Peter 1:6-7
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
She delivered the just man from among the wicked who were being destroyed, when he fled as fire descended upon Pentapolis—
2 Peter 2:7
and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
For you have dominion over life and death; you lead down to the gates of the nether world, and lead back.
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
bearing the sharp sword of your inexorable decree. And as he alighted, he filled every place with death; he still reached to heaven, while he stood upon the earth.
“To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword.
He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
There is but one, wise and truly awe-inspiring, seated upon his throne: 7 It is the LORD;
I trust that this is the list that you are looking for. It is wise to confront the heathen, the heretic and the apostate with the word of God. Praise Him; that we are able to act as His servants on Earth.
***The Protestant Reformers follows the Palestinian canon of Scripture (39 books), which was not officially recognized by Jews until around 100 A.D.***
Yet the Geneva bible and KJV both origionaly contained the Apocrypha books.
I have read them and find them generaly harmless pious works of fiction running the leingth from rediculous (Tobias) to interesting (Macabees) to good moral lessons in the Wisdom books.
As for accuracy, were the SPARTANS really childen of Abraham as Maccabes and the historian Josephus says they were?
These should be placed along with the Shepherd of Hermas in the pious reading but not cannonical books.
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See post #50.
That pretty much shatters all protestant claims. If translations in the vernacular existed before the year 1000, then Wycliffe did not create the first non-latin bible in england.
Maccabees contains the origin of Hanukkah.
why is it not in the Hebrew Canon?
C'mon now. The whole concept of cuius regio, eius religio was forced BECAUSE of the Reformation, which lead to Catholics being killed in Protestant lands, and vice versa.
Outstanding, my friend! That’s a “keeper” in the ol’ apologetics file!
***Outstanding, my friend! Thats a keeper in the ol apologetics file!***
I believe that more Catholics need to understand the Scriptural basis of Catholicism, as opposed to the creation of any theology at any time for any reason (or not).
It does not arise with me; I merely disseminate it. But our learned Protestant friends tend to quiet down or else to point elsewhere once this is posted.
“The scholar Jerome undertook the task. Jerome used the best texts he could find (including Hebrew when available), and produced the so-called Vulgate (Common Language) Bible. Again, these included the Deuterocanonical books, and this Bible was considered the authoritative translation for centuries”
Jerome did not consider the Apocryphal Books as Scripture or canonical.
This preface, also known as the Prologus Galeatus, “Helmeted Preface,” was written by Jerome about the year 391. In it he maintains that, for the Old Testament, only the Hebrew books traditionally regarded as Holy Scripture by the Jews are canonical, and the extra books of the Septuagint “are not in the canon.”
St. Jerome’s Prologue to the Books of the Kings 2
That the Hebrews have twenty-two letters is testified also by the Syrian and Chaldaaen languages, which for the most part correspond to the Hebrew; for they have twenty-two elementary sounds which are pronounced the same way, but are differently written. The Samaritans also write the Pentateuch of Moses with just the same number of letters, differing only in the shape and points of the letters. And it is certain that Esdras, the scribe and teacher of the law, after the capture of Jerusalem and the restoration of the temple by Zerubbabel, invented other letters which we now use, for up to that time the Samaritan and Hebrew characters were the same. In the book of Numbers, moreover, where we have the census of the Levites and priests [Num. 3:39], the same total is presented mystically. And we find the four-lettered name of the Lord [tetragrammaton] in certain Greek books written to this day in the ancient characters. The thirty-seventh Psalm, moreover, the one hundred and eleventh, the one hundred and twelfth, the one hundred and nineteenth, and the one hundred and forty-fifth, although they are written in different metres, are all composed [as acrostics] according to an alphabet of the same number of letters. The Lamentations of Jeremiah, and his Prayer, the Proverbs of Solomon also, towards the end, from the place where we read “Who will find a steadfast woman?” are instances of the same number of letters forming the division into sections. Furthermore, five are double letters, viz., Caph, Mem, Nun, Phe, Sade, for at the beginning and in the middle of words they are written one way, and at the end another way. Whence it happens that, by most people, five of the books are reckoned as double, viz., Samuel, Kings, Chronicles, Ezra, and Jeremiah with Kinoth, i.e., his Lamentations. As, then, there are twenty-two elementary characters by means of which we write in Hebrew all we say, and the human voice is comprehended within their limits, so we reckon twenty-two books, by which, as by the alphabet of the doctrine of God, a righteous man is instructed in tender infancy, and, as it were, while still at the breast.
The first of these books is called Bresith, to which we give the name Genesis. The second, Elle Smoth, which bears the name Exodus; the third, Vaiecra, that is Leviticus; the fourth, Vaiedabber, which we call Numbers; the fifth, Elle Addabarim, which is entitled Deuteronomy. These are the five books of Moses, which they properly call Thorath, that is, ‘Law.’
The second class is composed of the Prophets, and they begin with Jesus the son of Nave, which among them is called Joshua ben Nun. Next in the series is Sophtim, that is the book of Judges; and in the same book they include Ruth, because the events narrated occurred in the days of the Judges. Then comes Samuel, which we call First and Second Kings. The fourth is Malachim, that is, Kings, which is contained in the third and fourth volumes of Kings. And it is far better to say Malachim, that is Kings, than Malachoth, that is Kingdoms. For the author does not describe the Kingdoms of many nations, but that of one people, the people of Israel, which is comprised in the twelve tribes. The fifth is Isaiah; the sixth, Jeremiah; the seventh, Ezekiel; and the eighth is the book of the Twelve Prophets, which is called among them Thare Asra.
To the third class belong the Hagiographa, of which the first book begins with Job; the second with David, whose writings they divide into five parts and comprise in one volume of Psalms. The third is Solomon, in three books: Proverbs, which they call Parables, that is Masaloth; Ecclesiastes, that is Coeleth; and the Song of Songs, which they denote by the title Sir Assirim. The sixth is Daniel; the seventh, Dabre Aiamim, that is, Words of Days, which we may more descriptively call a chronicle of the whole of the sacred history, the book that amongst us is called First and Second Paralipomenon [Chronicles]. The eighth is Ezra, which itself is likewise divided amongst Greeks and Latins into two books; the ninth is Esther.
And so there are also twenty-two books of the Old Law; that is, five of Moses, eight of the prophets, nine of the Hagiographa, though some include Ruth and Kinoth (Lamentations) amongst the Hagiographa, and think that these books ought to be reckoned separately; we should thus have twenty-four books of the ancient Law. And these the Apocalypse of John represents by the twenty-four elders, who adore the Lamb and offer their crowns with lowered visage, while in their presence stand the four living creatures with eyes before and behind, that is, looking to the past and the future, and with unwearied voice crying, “Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who was and is and will be.”
This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a helmeted [i.e. defensive] introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is outside of them must be placed aside among the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd [of Hermes?] are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees is found in Hebrew, but the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.