Posted on 07/03/2008 9:35:59 AM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
John 7 2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand. 3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. 4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, show thyself to the world. 5 For neither did his brethren believe in him. 6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. 7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. 8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come. 9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. 10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret. 11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he? 12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people. 13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
That was good, thanks for the reminder.
RE your title:
I don’t appear to have any great lack in this department.
Thanks for thought-provoking post.
I don’t seem to be lacking in that area either my brother.
Well, with increasing instance and severity, we Catholics certainly are. Why, certain groups here on the FR religion forum take care of a good chunk of that on their own! :-0
Honestly - I speak for myself in this post: RCs are not hated. RCC dogma, doctrine, etc. that rails against Scripture is. Same with Mormons - it ain’t them that are hated; it’s their doctrines of demons that deny Christ. Anyone who defends unbiblical doctrines is sure to feel the hatred that is aimed at the false teaching. Unless ad hominem attacks take place, one shouldn’t take attacks on doctrine personally.
Since the followers of Christ are hated because of their beliefs, which are identified with Christ, your point creates a distinction without a difference. It's a shame that, in addition to the pagans and worldlings who have always opposed the Catholic Church and its members, other brands of Christians direct so much similar animosity toward it.
A multitude of anti-Catholic threads here on FR bear this out. They often do not merely disagree with doctrine, they are smear threads, designed solely to make the Church look bad or ridiculous. Their posting is certainly engendered by hatred of some type! Likewise, there are threads with simple disagreement with Catholic teaching as a theme, which wind up getting hijacked by sometimes hundreds of posts that have not much, if anything, to do with the thread theme, but simply use it as a springboard to bring up vile imaginings or half-truths. Surely, those are not motivated in Christian charity!
Ignoring your assertion that Catholic doctrine is inspired by the devil as simply coming from ignorance, it is still true that much of what is directed against the Church is just raw hatred swinging wildly against what people see as Catholic shibboleths, or against what they think is "Catholic doctrine," but, in fact, is a total falsehood or strawman set-up to complain about. That we allegedly "worship Mary" is a good and common example of this sort of thing. No matter how many times it is denied, no matter how many times the Catholic catechism is cited to show this is demonstrably false, some people can't let go of it, for the thought that Catholics are idolators gives them, apparently, too much comfort. Archbishop Fulton Sheen got it right when he said: "There aren't one hundred people in the whole country who hate what the Catholic Church teaches, but there are millions who hate what they think the Catholic Church teaches." Events on this forum alone prove him right, in spades!
Very well said.
Followers of Christ are hated because their lives line up with their beliefs and the world hates Jesus. With the followers of religions, on the other hand, it is a distinction with a difference. The Bible tells us not to hate those who are lost, but have compassion upon them. We are to hate those whom the Lord hates, and the Bible tells us who He hates: outwardly religious people whose hearts are far removed from Him and His Truths.
Smears happen from RCs as well as against them, so your observation about those activities is off-setting as well as irrelevant.
I didn’t say RCC doctrine was from Satan - I said Mormon doctrine about Christ is the doctrine of demons. I do think, however, that there is no neutral corner in the spiritual realm and that any teaching that denies essential Christian doctrine (the deity of Christ, His sufficiency, etc.) is not of the Lord and must, therefore, be of Satan. I give you the “Revival in Lakeland” as an example. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2037402/posts
So when an RC claims any man or group of men to be without error when interpreting God’s will (if he sits in the right chair or whatever the conditions are), this is a lie from hell. Same with anyone’s claim that new birth requires works from the one who would be born again.
But how people on either side of an issue behave is not for me to define or defend. People are the rule for what is right or wrong - the Word of God fills that spot.
Regarding Mary worship - from this side of the fence, RCs deny it fanatically, but news reports and RCC pronouncements show otherwise, though the denials grow louder and more strident. Mary (and other idols) are worshiped by untold numbers of people around the world. The RCC has tried to assimilate cultures as it moves in, rather than reproving sin with the Word.
While many people err in claiming to know the official teachings of another religion, that is not a defense against false teaching within that religion. Arguing that the critique hasn’t stated the doctrine just so doesn’t, in and of itself, invalidate the argument.
LOL . . . our easier ‘merit’ badges?
LOL.
LUB
That is interesting. Seems to me, that if the premise is flawed the conclusion drawn from the premise is flawed as well. Maybe I'm just unfamiliar with a new math kind of logic.
It’s really tough when you become a born-again believer and your family turns its back on you. But I always had to laugh, when they were in trouble, they knew who to come to for help or prayer. I’d rather be hated for His sake than have the approval of man.
Nobody hates you magisterium. That’s false. If we didn’t care, we wouldn’t put ourselves into these discussions so fervently. We care about your soul.
Psalm 82
A Psalm of Asaph.
1GOD STANDS in the assembly [of the representatives] of God; in the midst of the magistrates or judges He gives judgment [as] among the gods.
2How long will you [magistrates or judges] judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah [pause, and calmly think of that]!
3Do justice to the weak (poor) and fatherless; maintain the rights of the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy; rescue them out of the hand of the wicked.
5[The magistrates and judges] know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in the darkness [of complacent satisfaction]; all the foundations of the earth [the fundamental principles upon which rests the administration of justice] are shaking.
6I said, You are gods [since you judge on My behalf, as My representatives]; indeed, all of you are children of the Most High.(A)
7But you shall die as men and fall as one of the princes.
8Arise, O God, judge the earth! For to You belong all the nations.(B)
Cross references:
1. Psalm 82:6 : John 10:34-36; Rom 13:1, 2
2. Psalm 82:8 : Rev 11:15
Matt 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
The Lord here says TEACH -- make disciples (students). A person cannot be an effective teacher by antagonizing, insulting or mocking their student. A good teacher shows respect and allows the student to process any truths in private. A good teacher will share an idea that is precious... an idea that changed their life for the better.
In our religion, we understand 'nations' to mean all the states of goodness within a person. So when the Lord says 'disciples of all the nations', appeal to the good in the person (student). We all have a choice to be good (charitable) or be right. I know that good will get a person to heaven. Right may get you arguing religion to eternity.
The Great Commission gives “marching orders”, but I do not see it as instructions. Throughout Scripture, we see Christ and the Apostles giving law to the proud (that they might be convicted of sin) and grace to the humble (for they have been convicted). The Great Commission says to make disciples, it does not say how to evangelize the lost - who must be born again before they can be discipled.
The WORST thing a Christian can do is lead a goat into thinking he’s a sheep.
Matt 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you
The Lord was very clear: baptize and teach. His disciples were not to convict anyone of sin nor were they told to discern if someone was born-again or not. That is for the Lord alone.
"Make disciples of ALL nations" - only other thing I recall Him saying (when He sent out the 70) is shake the dust from your sandals if you are not received.
We understand goats (as in Matthew 25:31-46) as those in faith alone -- without charity. Sheep are those in faith and charity. I'm not quite sure how you're defining 'Christian', 'goat', or 'sheep'
John chapter 4, woman at the well. Christ used the law (show me your husband), pointing our her adultery, to convict her of sin.
John chapter 8, woman caught in adultery. Christ used the law (let him who is without sin cast the first stone), pointing out the pride of the men, to convict them of sin.
The teaching of people of necessity follows the conversion of them, as spiritually dead people cannot understand spiritual Truth. It falls not to Christians to determine who is a sheep, we accept the testimony of one and accept him as a brother until/unless his behavior reveals him to be a liar and not one of us.
Nowhere does the Scripture teach to baptize or disciple those who are prideful in their disdain for the Lord or those who cannot declare themselves to be His. Jesus had sharp rebukes to religious leaders - He did not baptize and teach them.
The context of the Scripture is key in understanding how it applies. Baptize and teach those who have received the gospel with joy. Yes, the Spirit judges and convicts of sin; the Christian works in league with the Holy Spirit, not in place of Him.
Well spoken, it’s the doctrine, not the person. Ignore the whiners.
We see it every day. All we can do is keep preaching The Gospel and pray for the lost.
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