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The Bitter Fruits of Atheism [Part I]
Apologetics Press ^ | July 2008

Posted on 07/07/2008 1:55:06 PM PDT by Sopater

This item is available on the Apologetics Press Web site at: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3740 - it was originally published in Reason & Revelation, 28[7]:49-55

AP Content :: Reason & Revelation

The Bitter Fruits of Atheism [Part I]
by Kyle Butt, M.A.

[EDITORS NOTE: For several decades now, evolution has received preeminent exposure throughout American culture via public schools, natural history and science museums, television programming, national parks guide booklets, popular magazines, children’s toys and clothing, movies and cinema, and the list goes on. What have been the results of such widespread, unilateral propaganda? Has the teaching of evolution exerted a positive influence on society? Have people been enriched, elevated, and enobled by the teaching of evolution? Atheistic evolutionists do not relish taking responsibility for the logical implications and consequences of their belief system. Nevertheless, read for yourself the first installment in a series on the bitter fruits of atheism and its progeny, evolution.]

On February 12, 1998, William Provine, a professor in the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the distinguished Cornell University, took to the podium on the campus of the University of Tennessee in Knoxville. He was invited to deliver the keynote address at the second annual Darwin Day, a day dedicated to commemorating the life and teachings of Charles Darwin. In an abstract of that speech, on the Darwin Day Web site, Dr. Provine’s introductory comments are recorded in the following words: “Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent” (Provine, 1998). Provine’s ensuing message centered on his fifth statement regarding human free will. Prior to delving into the “meat” of his message, however, he noted: “The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them” (1998).

It is clear then, from Provine’s comments, that he believes naturalistic evolution has no way to produce an “ultimate foundation for ethics.” And it is equally clear that this sentiment was so apparent to “modern naturalistic evolutionists” that Dr. Provine did not feel it even needed to be defended. Oxford professor Richard Dawkins concurred with Provine by saying: “Absolutist moral discrimination is devastatingly undermined by the fact of evolution” (2006, p. 301).

Comments from such high-profile evolutionists provide an excellent springboard from which to examine the logical consequences of belief in naturalistic evolution. If it is true that humans evolved from non-living, primordial slime, then any sense of moral obligation must simply be a subjective outworking of the physical neurons firing in the brain. Theoretically, atheistic scientists and philosophers admit this truth. Charles Darwin understood it perfectly. He wrote: “A man who has no assured and ever present belief in the existence of a personal God or of a future existence with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones” (1958, p. 94, emp. added). On a pragmatic level, however, when a person or group of people actually allow the theoretical idea to influence their actions, the brutality of evolution’s immorality is brought to light, and its absurdity is manifested.

DEVALUING OF HUMAN LIFE

It is an easily ascertainable fact that belief in atheistic evolution devalues human life, demoting it to the base level of animal status. Such thinking logically leads to the adoption of measures that destroy innocent human life, but are still viewed by atheistic thinkers as “moral.” For instance, in 1983, Peter Singer published an article in the prestigious magazine Pediatrics titled “Sanctity of Life or Quality of Life?” In the article, he contended that there is no moral burden to keep alive human infants who are born with mental retardation or other developmental problems such as Down’s syndrome. The entire article presents a case against the sanctity of human life, and suggests that the lives of some animals would be much more valuable than the lives of mentally retarded children. In fact, he alluded to the fact that modern, evolutionary teaching has destroyed the idea of the sanctity of human life:

We can no longer base our ethics on the idea that human beings are a special form of creation.... Our better understanding of our own nature has bridged the gulf that was once thought to lie between ourselves and other species, so why should we believe that the mere fact that a being is a member of the species Homo sapiens endows its life with some unique, almost infinite, value?... If we compare a severely defective human infant with a nonhuman animal, a dog or a pig, for example, we will often find the nonhuman to have superior capacities, both actual and potential, for rationality, self-consciousness, communication, and anything else that can plausibly be considered morally significant. Only the fact that the defective infant is a member of the species Homo sapiens leads it to be treated differently from the dog or pig. Species membership alone, however, is not morally relevant.... If we can put aside the obsolete and erroneous notion of the sanctity of all human life, we may start to look at human life as it really is: at the quality of life that each human being has or can achieve” (Singer, 72[1]:128-129 emp. added).

In his book The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins expressed the same idea when he wrote: “Notice now that ‘pro-life’ doesn’t exactly mean pro-life at all. It means pro-human-life. The granting of uniquely special rights to cells of the species Homo sapiens is hard to reconcile with the fact of evolution.... The humanness of an embryo’s cells cannot confer upon it any absolutely discontinuous moral status” (2006, p. 300, italics in orig., emp. added).

In his book Created from Animals: The Moral Implications of Darwinism, self-proclaimed Darwinian James Rachels stated that when the true moral implications of evolution are understood,

human life will no longer be regarded with the kind of superstitious awe which it is accorded in traditional thought, and the lives of non-humans will no longer be a matter of indifference. This means that human life will, in a sense, be devalued, while the value granted to non-human life will be increased. A revised view of such matters as suicide and euthanasia, as well as a revised view of how we should treat animals, will result (1990, p. 5, emp. added).

He further noted: “The big issue in all this is the value of human life.... The difficulty is that Darwinism leaves us with fewer resources from which to construct an account of the value of life” (p. 197, emp. added).

According to atheistic evolution, whether a human child lives or dies should depend on the level of potential suffering, intelligence or lack thereof, mental retardation, or physical handicap. If resources are so limited that an intelligent chimpanzee and a human child cannot both be kept alive, then the child’s intelligence or threshold of suffering should be compared to the chimpanzee’s. If the chimp happens to be more “intelligent” or more capable of suffering, then the “simple” fact that the child is a human should not confer any special moral status. Thus, according to this line of thinking, it would be morally right to eliminate the human child in favor of the chimpanzee. Rachels presented this idea quite clearly:

An infant with severe brain damage, even if it survives for many years, may never learn to speak, and its mental powers may never rise above a primitive level. In fact, its psychological capacities may be markedly inferior to those of a typical rhesus monkey. In that case, moral individualism [of which Rachels is a proponent—KB] would see no reason to prefer its life over the monkey’s (1990, pp. 189-190).

The absurdity of such thinking flies in the face of everything that humans have understood to be moral. The framers of the Declaration of Independence understood the special place that humans hold. They penned the famous words: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” (1776). Notice that the Declaration framers believed that humans had certain rights that were “self-evident.” In fact, the framers simply recorded this idea that had been understood by humanity for millennia.

What happens when individuals, who believe that humans should not be given any special moral status, put their belief into action? James Rachels shed a sickening light on that question when he concluded:

Some unfortunate humans—perhaps because they have suffered brain damage—are not rational agents. What are we to say about them? The natural conclusion, according to the doctrine we are considering, would be that their status is that of mere animals. And perhaps we should go on to conclude that they may be used as non-human animals are used—perhaps as laboratory subjects, or as food (1990, p. 186).

Population Elimination

Forrest Mims III is the Chairman of the Environmental Science Section of the Texas Academy of Science. He edits a publication titled The Citizen Scientists. On March 3-5, 2006, Mims attended the 109th meeting of the Texas Academy of Science, which was held at Lamar University in Beaumont, Texas. Mims related the events that occurred during that meeting in an article titled Meeting Doctor Doom (2006). [Unless otherwise noted, the following quotes and facts are derived from that article.]

At the meeting, Dr. Eric R. Pianka, “the University of Texas evolutionary ecologist and lizard expert who the Academy named the 2006 Distinguished Texas Scientist,” delivered a speech to about 400 attendees. Just before Pianka spoke, Mims noted that an official of the Academy was involved in a conversation with the cameraman who was recording the meeting. The conversation resulted in the cameraman pointing “the lens of his big camera to the ceiling and slowly walking away.” Mims started taking notes on the speech when Pianka began by warning the audience that most people are not ready to hear what he had to say to the assembly.

Mims noted that one of Pianka’s main points was that humans should not be given special status among other animals. “Pianka hammered his point home by exclaiming, ‘We’re no better than bacteria!’” In his speech, Pianka suggested that the Earth cannot survive the current human population increase, and that something needs to be done “to reduce the population to 10 percent of the present number.” Pianka then mentioned several ways this might occur. “His favorite candidate for eliminating 90 percent of the world’s population is airborne Ebola (Ebola Reston), because it is both highly lethal and it kills in days instead of years.” The speech ended with a question-and-answer period. Mims noted: “Immediately almost every scientist, professor and college student present stood to their feet and vigorously applauded the man who had enthusiastically endorsed the elimination of 90 percent of the human population. Some even cheered.”

Of course, many within the evolutionary community did not want to connect themselves closely with the idea that an evolutionary ecologist seems to think that his evolutionary ideas need to lead to the mass destruction of five billion humans. They quickly accused Mims of misrepresentation. On April 6, 2006, Nick Matzke wrote:

The wingnut echo chamber has recently gone insane over the idea that Eric Pianka, a distinguished and much-loved ecologist at UT, advocates mass genocide by ebola in order to bring down world population. The allegation was leveled by disgruntled creationist Forrest Mims, and rapidly spread to the blogosphere via places like Dembski’s blog (three posts!) and Telic Thoughts, and then went to the Drudge Report and caused a national media firestorm appearing in my local paper by Monday morning. I smelled a rat from the beginning, and now I have been proved right. KXAN News36 in Austin, TX, has just debunked the whole thing (2006, emp. added).

Matzke’s statement that the information from News36 debunked “the whole thing” was far from the truth. In fact, in a letter dated April 10, 2006, Assistant Professor Dr. Kenneth R. Summy, the Vice-Chairman of the Environmental Science Section of the Texas Academy of Science, wrote:

My overall impression of Dr. Pianka’s presentation was a ‘doomsday’ message that life on earth is about to end, and the sooner the human population crashes the better. I hope he was joking or being sarcastic when he stated that a pandemic of ebola virus would be great for the earth? [sic] no sane person would really believe that (2006).

Dr. Summy further noted:

Forrest Mims did not misrepresent anything regarding the presentation. I heard these statements myself, and would be willing to bet that most of the audience attending the presentation got the same impression that I did. In my opinion, the message contained in the keynote address detracted from what was otherwise an excellent meeting (2006).

The following statements by a student “defending” Dr. Pianka add further credence to Mims’ record: “Dr. Pianka’s talk at the TAS meeting was mostly of the problems humans are causing as we rapidly proliferate around the globe.... He’s a radical thinker, that one! I mean, he’s basically advocating for the death of all but 10% of the current population! And at the risk of sounding just as radical, I think he’s right” (“Dr. Eric R. Pianka...,” 2006; see also “Revisiting...,” 2006).

Additionally, Dr. Pianka personally posted several student evaluations of his teaching. One student commented: “I don’t root for ebola [sic], but maybe a ban on having more than one child. I agree...too many people [are] ruining this planet” (“Excerpts from Student Evaluations,” 1999). Another wrote: “Though I agree that convervation [sic] biology is of utmost importance to the world, I do not think that preaching that 90% of the human population should die of ebola [sic] is the most effective means of encouraging conservation awareness” (“Excerpts from Student Evaluations”).

The fact is, Dr. Pianka’s evolutionary concepts of ecology push him to conclude that humans are no better than bacteria and that the human population needs to be dramatically reduced. As much as many of his fellow evolutionists would like to distance themselves from such radical thinking, they cannot logically do so. Atheistic evolution implies that humans are no better than bacteria. They may have more capacity to suffer, they may have more complex brains and body structures, but in the end, one living organism is only as valuable as another. If you have the moral right to destroy millions of bacteria because they are hindering the “progress” of humanity, you have the same moral right to destroy billions of humans because they are causing ecological problems for other, equally valuable, organisms on the planet.

Abortion

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines abortion as: “the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus” (“Abortion,” n.d., emp. added). In the United States, this murderous practice has been legal since January 22, 1973, and has resulted in the deaths of more than 48 million innocent human lives in this country alone. If the abortions performed in Europe and Asia during the same time period were added to this figure, the death toll would easily reach into the hundreds of millions. Is it immoral to terminate the lives of unborn human children?

According to the atheistic evolutionary community, abortion is not an immoral practice. In fact, it is often viewed as something moral and right. One line of reasoning used to justify the practice is the idea that humans should not be treated differently than animals, since humans are nothing more than animals themselves. The fact that an embryo is “human” is no reason to give it special status. Dawkins wrote: “An early embryo has the sentience, as well as the semblance, of a tadpole.... One school of thought cares about whether embryos can suffer. The other cares about whether they are human.... Secular moralists are more likely to ask, ‘Never mind whether it is human (what does that even mean for a little cluster of cells?); at what ages does a developing embryo, of any specie become capable of suffering?’” (2006, pp. 297-298, italics and parenthetical items in orig.). Dawkins identifies himself as a “secular moralist” who would not factor into the moral equation the idea of “humanness.” How would he and other “secular moralists” decide if a human embryo should live? He noted:

A consequentialist or utilitarian is likely to approach the abortion question in a very different way, by trying to weigh up suffering. Does the embryo suffer? (Presumably not if it is aborted before it has a nervous system; and even if it is old enough to have a nervous system it surely suffers less than, say, an adult cow in a slaughterhouse.) (2006, p. 293, parenthetical item in orig., emp. added).

The modern atheistic moralist simply “weighs up suffering.” If the human embryo has not yet reached the stage at which a nervous system develops, then it is less valuable than an animal that does have a nervous system. And even if it does have a nervous system, it probably does not suffer as much as a cow in a slaughterhouse. Thus, it would be more moral to stop killing cows in a slaughterhouse than to stop allowing humans to abort their children. As atheistic writer Sam Harris noted: “If you are concerned about suffering in this universe, killing a fly should present you with greater moral difficulties than killing a human blastocyst [three-day-old human embryo—KB]” (2006, p. 30). He further stated: “If you are worried about human suffering, abortion should rank very low on your list of concerns” (p. 37).

The moral bankruptcy of such thinking is brutally obvious. Since when is the amount of suffering the criterion by which moral decisions of human life and death are made? Yet that is exactly what Dawkins and his fellow atheistic moralists contend. He wrote: “Of course, it could be argued that humans are more capable of, for example, suffering than other species. This could well be true, and we might legitimately give humans special status by virtue of it” (2006, p. 301). According to Dawkins, it would be logically permissible to kill any person as long as they do not suffer, or others (like parents or siblings) do not suffer because of their deaths. Suppose, then, a society decides that five-year-old orphans with no siblings are less than ideal and need to be eliminated. In keeping with Dawkins’ morality, if policemen sneak up behind the children and deliver an immediately lethal bullet to their brains so that they never feel any pain, then such actions could be as morally viable as killing adult cows in a slaughterhouse. Dawkins and his fellow atheistic thinkers have absolutely no grounds on which to assert that killing five-year-olds in this fashion is “wrong.”

Peter Singer admits the reality of this logical implication of atheistic evolution. In his chapter titled: “Justifying Infanticide,” Singer concluded that human infants are “replaceable.” What does Singer mean by “replaceable”? He points out that if a mother has decided that she will have two children, and the second child is born with hemophilia, then that infant can be disposed of and replaced by another child without violating any moral code of ethics. He explained: “Therefore, if killing the hemophiliac infant has no adverse effect on others, it would, according to the total view, be right to kill him. The total view treats infants as replaceable” (2000, p. 190).

He went on to argue that many in society would be aghast at killing an infant with a disability like hemophilia, but without good reason. He argued that such is done regularly before birth, when a mother aborts a child inutero after prenatal diagnosis reveals a disorder. He stated:

When death occurs before birth, replaceability does not conflict with generally accepted moral convictions. That a fetus is known to be disabled is widely accepted as a ground for abortion. Yet in discussing abortion, we say that birth does not mark a morally significant dividing line. I cannot see how one could defend the view that fetuses may be “replaced” before birth, but newborn infants may not (2000, p. 191).

Singer further proposed that parents should be given a certain amount of time after a child is born to decide whether or not they would like to kill the child. He wrote: “If disabled newborn infants were not regarded as having a right to life until, say, a week or a month after birth it would allow parents, in consultation with their doctors, to choose on the basis of far greater knowledge of the infant’s condition than is possible before birth” (2000, p. 193). One has to wonder why Singer would stop at one week or one month. Why not simply say that it is morally right for parents to kill their infants at one year or five years? Singer concluded his chapter on infanticide with these words: “Nevertheless the main point is clear: killing a disabled infant is not morally equivalent to killing a person. Very often it is not wrong at all” (p. 193, emp. added). When the logical consequences of atheistic evolution are so clearly spelled out by its adherents, the prospects are grisly indeed.

Animals Kill Their Offspring

Another line of reasoning used to justify abortion (and various other immoral practices) is the idea that since humans are animals, it is right for them to behave like animals. Charles Darwin himself proposed in a chapter of The Descent of Man: “My object in this chapter is to shew that there is no fundamental difference between man and the higher mammals in their mental faculties” (1871, p. 446). Thus, it is suggested that if we can find an example of animals engaging in an activity, that would provide enough moral justification needed for humans to practice the same. Applying this idea to abortion, Barbara Burke wrote: “Among some animal species, infant killing appears to be a natural practice. Could it be natural for humans too, a trait inherited from our primate ancestors? Charles Darwin noted in The Descent of Man that infanticide has been ‘probably the most important of all checks on population growth throughout most of human history’” (1974, 185:653).

Notice that Burke recognizes the fact that humans kill their offspring, and justifies the practice by referring to “analogous” activities in the animal kingdom. Maybe, she reasons, humans kill their infants or unborn children because they inherited the murderous practice from their animal ancestors. By reasoning in this fashion, she attempts, not only to suggest that killing human infants is not morally neutral, but that it could be morally right if the practice is used to check population growth. In this regard, James Rachels wrote:

Finally, if one is nevertheless tempted to believe that humans are psychologically unique, it is useful to remember that the whole enterprise of experimental psychology, as it is practiced today, assumes otherwise. Animal behaviour is routinely studied with an eye to acquiring information that can then be applied to humans. Psychologists who want to investigate maternal behaviour, for example...might study the behaviour of rhesus monkey mothers and infants, assuming that whatever is true of them will be true of humans—because, after all, they are so much like us (1990, p. 166, emp. added).

In response to such thinking, several points need to be considered. Humans are not animals. There is no documented evidence verifying the false idea that humans evolved from lower organisms (see Harrub and Thompson, 2002). In fact, all observable evidence verifies that humans maintain a completely unique status in regard to their mental, emotional, and cognitive components (see “In the Image...,” 2001; Lyons and Thompson, 2002). To justify human behavior based on behavior observed in the animal world exhibits a grotesque ignorance of everything humans understand about morality. Ten percent of the diet of an adult Komodo dragon often consists of its cannibalizing young Komodo dragons. Would anyone be so irrationally disturbed as to suggest that, because we see infant cannibalism in Komodo dragons, it would be natural for humans to eat their young as well? Apparently so. James Rachels wrote: “The whole idea of using animals as psychological models for humans is a consequence of Darwinism. Before Darwin, no one could have taken seriously the thought that we might learn something about the human mind by studying mere animals” (1990, p. 221, emp. added).

If all conceivable human behavior can be justified based on the idea that it mimics animal behavior, then why not abolish all laws, allow stronger humans to kill the weaker ones, allow mothers to eat their babies, allow men to murder sexual rivals, allow women to murder and cannibalize their lovers after intercourse, and simply chalk up such a deplorable situation to “nature”? The logical consequences of such philosophical justification are as obvious as they are ridiculous. The ploy to justify abortion (and other equally reprehensible immoralities) by suggesting that it is “natural” is little more than an attempt to cast aside all moral constraints and debase society to the point of mindless bestiality. Yet such is the logical result of atheism.

Death in the Name of Atheism

Not all atheists are grotesquely immoral people. In fact, many of them would be viewed as moral individuals who do not steal, murder, abuse their children, or violate laws. The point to be made is not that all atheistic thinkers are living out the logical implications of their beliefs. The point is that the philosophy of atheism logically implies that immorality is acceptable or non-existent. It is true that most atheists do not put the implications of their belief into practice, but it is also true that some do, and that their actions cannot be construed to be anything other than what they are—the logical consequences of atheistic, evolutionary thinking.

Of course, “respectable” atheists deny that people commit heinously immoral crimes at the instigation of atheism. As Dawkins has stated: “Individual atheists may do evil things but they don’t do evil things in the name of atheism” (Dawkins, 2006, p. 278, emp. added). His assertion is patently false. People often do evil things in the name of atheism. These people understand their evolutionary atheism to be a primary contributing factor to their evil actions, and the full weight of atheism’s logical conclusions justifies their behavior.

Columbine

April 20, 1999 will go down in U.S. history as the date of one of the most nefarious, murderous criminal acts in modern times. Two teenage boys, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, after months of elaborate planning, opened fire on their schoolmates, killing 12 of their peers and one teacher, injuring 23 others, and then committing suicide. Evidence posted on the Web and in written documents showed that the two teens had concocted detailed plans to kill hundreds of students with homemade explosives, but most of their macabre plans went awry.

Hundreds of police investigators, educators, political leaders, and other professionals delved into the reasons why Harris and Klebold snapped as they did. One eye-opening aspect of the research has been the very clear connection between the evolutionary idea of natural selection and Harris’ desire to kill his fellow humans. On the day of the shooting, Harris wore a white T-shirt with the words “Natural Selection” emblazoned on it (“Columbine,” 2008). This was not coincidental, but was designed to make a statement. According to the Jefferson County Sheriff’s Office Report, in a document found in his room, Harris wrote: “I would love to see all you f-------ds die. NBK. I love it! sometime [sic] in April me and V will get revenge and will kick natural selection up a few notches” (as quoted in “Columbine,” 2008, emp. added). His diary also stated: “I will sooner die than betray my own thoughts. but [sic] before I leave this worthless place, I will kill whoever I deem unfit for, anything at all, especially life” (as quoted in “Columbine,” 2008, emp. added).

In his article titled “Kill Mankind. No One Should Survive,” Dave Cullen reported extensively on the investigation surrounding the Columbine massacre. He wrote:

“They do consider the human race beneath them,” one investigator said. Harris “talks a lot about natural selection and that kind of leads into his admiration of Hitler and Nazism and their ‘final solution’—that we, the human race have interrupted or disrupted natural selection by inventing vaccines and stuff like that. In one of his writings, he talks about that: ‘It would be great if there were no vaccines, because people who should have died would have died, and we wouldn’t be perpetuating this kind of stuff’” (1999, emp. added).

The Columbine killers’ evolutionary beliefs cannot be disconnected from their brutal slayings.

Finland Massacre

Another example of this type of relationship between atheism and immoral behavior comes from Finland. An 18-year-old man named Pekka Eric Auvinen marched into his school and shot and killed seven of his schoolmates as well as the headmistress. He then turned the gun on himself and committed suicide. When such gruesome carnage occurs, we naturally ask, “Why?” What would drive a young man like Auvinen to commit such horrific atrocities? In Auvinen’s case, the answer is clear.

Auvinen explained the philosophy that led him to commit this dastardly mass murder. On a Web site message board post from before the slaying, he explained that he was a self-avowed “cynical existentialist, anti-human humanist, anti-social social-Darwinist, realistic idealist and god-like atheist” (“Teen Dead...,” 2007, emp. added). He went on to state: “I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection” (2007, emp. added). There you have it. The reason he murdered eight innocent people is because he was an atheistic evolutionist who devalued human life and believed that he had the right to destroy any living being who he considered to be less fit than himself.

As much as evolutionists insist on separating themselves from such disgusting displays of immorality, the logical implications of their godlessness tie them indubitably to Auvinen’s actions. The only thing that separates Auvinen from other atheists is that he acted out the logical implications of his atheistic belief. It is high time atheism’s immorality is recognized, repudiated, and exposed for the reprehensible fruit it bears.

Jeffrey Dahmer

Jeffrey Dahmer was one of the most notorious serial killers in modern history. He murdered 17 men and boys, dismembered them, stored human body parts in his apartment, practiced homosexual necrophilia and cannibalized his victims (Dahmer, 1994, p. 10). He was convicted of 15 counts of murder and sentenced to serve over 900 years in prison. During his incarceration, he was murdered by another inmate.

When a person perpetrates such brutal and deranged crimes against his fellow man, natural questions that arise in the minds of those who hear the details include: Why would a person commit such heinous crimes? What would cause a person to become such a murderer? In Jeffrey Dahmer’s case, he supplied the world with the answer.

In 1994, Stone Phillips interviewed Jeffrey Dahmer and his father Lionel Dahmer for NBC’s Dateline. In that interview, Stone Phillips asked Jeffrey Dahmer several questions regarding the possible causes of Dahmer’s behavior. In one portion of the interview, Jeffrey explained that he took complete and personal responsibility for his actions, and his crimes could not be blamed on his parents, school, or other external circumstances. Following those remarks, Jeffrey said: “There comes a point where a person has to be accountable for what he’s done.” His father, Lionel, then asked him: “Let me ask. When did you first feel that everyone is accountable for their actions?” Jeffrey responded:

Well, thanks to you for sending that creation science material. Because I always believed the lie that evolution is truth, the theory of evolution is truth. That we all just came from the slime, and when we died, you know, that was it. There was nothing. So the whole theory cheapens life.... And I’ve since come to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the true Creator of the Earth. It didn’t just happen (Phillips, 1994, emp. added).

Lionel Dahmer then began to discuss the period of time during Jeffrey’s upbringing that he thought most influenced Jeffrey’s murderous behavior. Lionel said: “At that period of time I had drifted away from a belief in a Supreme Being. And I never, as a result, passed along the feeling that we are all accountable. In the end, He owns us. And that basic concept is very fundamental to all of us.”

Stone Phillips then asked Lionel: “You feel that the absence, at least for a while, of a strong religious faith and belief may have prevented you from instilling some of that in Jeff?” Lionel responded: “That’s right.” Phillips then turned to Jeffrey and asked: “Is that how you feel?” Jeffrey responded to Phillips’ question: “Yes, I think that had a big part to do with it. If a person doesn’t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought, anyway” (Phillips, 1994).

To what, then, did Dahmer attribute his gruesome, horrifying crimes? He simply said he believed that evolution is true, that humans arose from primordial slime, and that there is no personal accountability inherent in the theory. Dahmer understood the logical implications of atheistic evolution perfectly. Dahmer’s behavior appalls society because he had the brains and drive to put the theoretical implications into practice in real life. When he did, society was justifiably outraged at his behavior. But such outrage is justifiable only in the context of a God to Whom all people are accountable. Without such accountability, Dahmer was right to conclude: “What’s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?” Dahmer is yet another example of a person who committed heinously evil crimes in the name of atheism.

[to be continued]

REFERENCES

“Abortion” (2008), Merriam-Webster Dictionary, [On-line], URL: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abortion.

Burke, Barbara (1974), “Infanticide,” Science, 185:653.

“Columbine” (2008), [On-line], URL: http://home.arcor.de/hbredel/Buch/Columbine-English/ columbine-english.html.

Cullen, Dave (1999), “Kill Mankind. No One Should Survive,” Salon.com, [On-line], URL: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/09/23/journal/print.html.

Dahmer, Lionel (1994), A Father’s Story (New York: William Morrow).

Darwin, Charles (1871), The Descent of Man (New York: Modern Library, reprint).

Darwin, Charles (1958), The Autobiography of Charles Darwin, ed. Nora Barlow, (New York: W.W. Norton).

Dawkins, Richard (2006), The God Delusion (New York: Houghton Mifflin).

The Declaration of Independence (1776), National Archives, [On-line], URL: http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/ declaration.html.

“Dr. Eric R. Pianka: University of Texas at Austin” (2006), [On-line], URL: http://www.geocities.com/tetrahedronomega/brenmccnnll.blogspot. com-2006-03-dr.html.

“Excerpts from Student Evaluations” (1999), [On-line], URL: http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/bio357/357evaluations.html.

Harris, Sam (2006), Letter to a Christian Nation (New York: Alfred A. Knopf).

Harrub, Brad and Bert Thompson (2002), “Creationists Fight Back! A Review of U.S. News and World Report,” Reason & Revelation, 22[9]:65-71, September, [On-line], URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2094.

“In the Image and Likeness of God” (2001), [On-line]: URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/pdfs/courses_pdf/hsc0203.pdf.

Lyons, Eric and Bert Thompson (2002), “In the Image and Likeness of God: Part 1,” Reason & Revelation, 22[3]:17-23, [On-line]: URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/123.

Matzke, Nick (2006), “Forrest Mims: ‘Crazy Kook,’ says Pianka,” [On-line], URL: http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/04/forrest_mims_cr.html.

Mims, Forrest (2006), “Dealing With Doctor Doom,” The Citizen Scientist, [On-line], URL: http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2006/2006-04-07/feature1p/ index.html.

Phillips, Stone (1994), Interview with Jeffrey and Lionel Dahmer, [On-line], URL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjW7bezdddE.

Provine, William (1998), “Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life,” [On-line], URL: http://eeb.bio.utk.edu/darwin/DarwinDayProvineAddress.htm.

Rachels, James (1990), Created from Animals: The Moral Implications of Darwinism (New York: Oxford University Press).

“Revisiting the Pianka/Ebola Flap” (2006), [On-line], URL: http://tim.2wgroup.com/blog/archives/001280.html.

Singer, Peter (1983), “Sanctity of Life or Quality of Life,” Pediatrics, 72[1]:128-129.

Singer, Peter (2000), Writings on an Ethical Life (New York: Harper Collins).

Summy, Kenneth R. (2006), “Letter Addressed to President and Board of Directors of the Texas Academy of Science,” [On-line], URL: http://www.geocities.com/tetrahedronomega/kenneth-summy- letter.html.

“Teen Dead Who Opened Fire on Finnish Classmates, Police Say” (2007), CNN, [On-line], URL: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/07/school.shooting/ index.html.



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TOPICS: Apologetics; Religion & Science; Theology
KEYWORDS: atheism; creation; evolution

1 posted on 07/07/2008 1:55:06 PM PDT by Sopater
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To: Sopater
It's been recently that I have seen more and more threads about atheism. I was amazed.

The Bitter Fruits of Atheism [Part I]

Logical Proof of the Existence of a Divine Creator, Why Atheism is Not Logically Sound

A Theologian Answers the Atheists - Myth 1: Atheists Are Smarter [Open]

What the New Atheists Don’t See

Atheist Sues To Prevent Son From Attending Catholic School

Can Atheists Be Parents?

The Immaculate Vs. the Proud (the battle against atheism)

Pope criticizes atheism in encyclical

Papal Encyclical Attacks Atheism, Lauds Hope (Reuters Take)

The Twilight of Atheism: The Global Triumph of Christianity

California Terminates Family Values and the Atheists Take to the Airwaves

2 posted on 07/07/2008 2:16:05 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Sopater

This may be the single most idiotic thing I have ever seen from the anti-science crowd. And its culminating paragraphs, citing two teenage school shootings and Jeffrey Dahmer as, I suppose, proof positive that “them evolutionists is some kinda’ bad” is just laughable.


3 posted on 07/07/2008 2:48:18 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: Sopater
Marxists and Humanists apply the theories of evolution and the dialectic to morality and conclude that ethics develops as humanity progresses and that we have not yet established the perfect ethical code that will govern man in utopian society. Indeed, the Marxist goes so far as to declare all present moral codes bourgeois and therefore sinister. Given these beliefs, proponents of Marxism and Humanism must perceive ethics as relative. They must reject all ethical absolutes, and even view claims of unchangeable ethical codes as horrible deceptions.

Humanism's ethical stance allows people like Ted Bundy to justify even rape and murder. He learned in his philosophy class that moral judgments are value judgments, and that value judgments are subjective and that none can be proved to be either "right" or "wrong". And God has not marked some pleasures as "moral" or "bad". So, if rape and murder is pleasurable, and it is an expression of his spontaneous and uninhibited self, then it is not "bad".

4 posted on 07/07/2008 4:06:33 PM PDT by mjp (Live & let live. I don't want to live in Mexico, Marxico, or Muslimico. Statism & high taxes suck)
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To: atlaw; Sopater
This may be the single most idiotic thing I have ever seen from the anti-science crowd.

Well now, atlaw, what’s idiotic about it?

Is it idiotic to relate that Professor Provine has asserted that 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent? Is it that he just simply hasn’t said these things? Or that he hasn’t made such statements in a setting and venue indicating he believes these sentiments to be of academic and intellectual significance? That he is, after all, a most magnanimous and benign fellow, and that he was merely kidding around and was quoted horridly out of context? Is it idiotic to note that Richard Dawkins concurred with the good professor when he stated: “Absolutist moral discrimination is devastatingly undermined by the fact of evolution”? Not true? Or, Dawkins did not mean the statement absolutely?

Was it idiotic of Butt to observe, “If it is true that humans evolved from non-living, primordial slime, then any sense of moral obligation must simply be a subjective outworking of the physical neurons firing in the brain.” Was he not simply summarizing the thoughts of Provine, Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, et al? Was it no more than the thought and the emotion of “almost every scientist, professor and college student” who stood to cheer and applaud Pianka when he endorsed the active elimination of 90 percent of the human race? Perhaps we should appropriate the Dickensian phrase “the surplus population” to describe those marked for a final solution. Let me also propose that those, who advocate such a fate, show the rest of us the way by being the first to shuffle off into that great good night. For some reason, I have the distinct impression that neither Provine, Pianka, Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, et al, nor any of their acolytes, will be among those eager to volunteer for a premature oblivion.

Was it idiotic of Butt to quote Darwin? Darwin wrote: “A man who has no assured and ever present belief in the existence of a personal God or of a future existence with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones.” What’s idiotic is the existence of thought patterns that would drive a scientist to conclude that the only practical and ethical course open to him dictates that he end the existence of 90 percent of the human race.

5 posted on 07/07/2008 9:48:53 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; marron; metmom; TXnMA; MHGinTN; xzins
They're at it again beep.
6 posted on 07/07/2008 10:10:01 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: YHAOS

Thanks for the ping!


7 posted on 07/07/2008 10:44:38 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: YHAOS; atlaw; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Whosoever
They must be at it again.. You either identify with the animal or with the spirit.. If with the animal then the "spirit" is a metaphor.. If with the spirit then the "animal" is a metaphor.. Its a matter of faith either way.. It is a choice, a preference..

Who can deny that you have a body?.. The spirit is a learned revelation.. Veils must be lifted to see it.. Many are in between.. They identify with neither, or both, or they vacillate.. How did Jesus put it?.. When the sower sows.. some seed falls on rocky ground, some in the thorns, and some on good ground.. the waterer waters, but God gives the increase.. The sower sows liberally, the waterer waters liberally but the seed is dependent on the soil it is sowed into..

You identify with the animal or the spirit.. that is the ground the seed is sown into.. and hopefully watered.. What grows takes on the character of the ground it grows in.. The Son is the light that makes it grow.. or wither..

Spiritual husbandry is indeed gardening.. Human life is a spiritual experience or an animal experience.. for that is what we are here for.. for the lifting of veil(s) or the gruntings of the animal experience.. An evolution from the animal to the spiritual.. That is why Jesus said; We MUST be born again.. Only the removing of a veil can reveal that.. The removing of veils is a beautiful story.. and good news to any that have experienced it..

God bless the sower and the waterer and God bless the seed.. God does not sow weeds, but the soil must be deep, and the light from the Son produces the life.. or a withering cascade that drys up.. The drama of it all is deep and meaningful and wonderful.. We can be fooled by the condition of the soil but the seed exposes the truth.. The light of the Son is either a blessing or a trial with testimony for each..

8 posted on 07/07/2008 11:25:23 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: Sopater
I don't really want to argue religion, but this passagereally got my attention:

Has the teaching of evolution exerted a positive influence on society? Have people been enriched, elevated, and enobled by the teaching of evolution? Atheistic evolutionists do not relish taking responsibility for the logical implications and consequences of their belief system.

... Because it so spectacularly misses the point. People do not teach evolution to exert a positive influence on society, or to elevate and ennoble people, or for any such ulterior motive. They teach evolution because it is the truth.

Which, it seems to me, is a reason that can stand against all comers.

9 posted on 07/08/2008 1:58:09 AM PDT by John Locke
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To: YHAOS

But, but, but, dontcha know? Atheists are morally superior to believers?

Proof positive is that there’s fewer atheists in jail than those who profess religion.

What more do you need?


10 posted on 07/08/2008 5:40:19 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

I have never communicated with an atheist who wasn’t an arrogant, condescending ass.

And I’ve never read about an atheist turned believer who didn’t admit that his “bitter clinging” to atheism wasn’t all about justifying a narcissistic lifestyle that he knew was wrong, even while living it.


11 posted on 07/08/2008 5:44:39 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: John Locke; Sopater
They teach evolution because it is the truth.

Prove it.

In case you haven't heard, truth is a word best avoided in science. You need to check with your cohorts and get with the program.

From the frevo dictionary of made up to support evolution definitions (a not generally recognized as authoritative source)...

Truth: This is a word best avoided entirely in physics [and science] except when placed in quotes, or with careful qualification. Its colloquial use has so many shades of meaning from ‘it seems to be correct’ to the absolute truths claimed by religion, that it’s use causes nothing but misunderstanding. Someone once said "Science seeks proximate (approximate) truths." Others speak of provisional or tentative truths. Certainly science claims no final or absolute truths. Source.

12 posted on 07/08/2008 5:47:19 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: atlaw

Go ahead and laugh. The point is that the theory of evolution devalues human life to the equivalence of bacteria. If you have a valid argument against that statement, please feel free to present it.


13 posted on 07/08/2008 5:49:33 AM PDT by Sopater (A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to the left. ~ Ecclesiastes 10:2)
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To: MrB
I have never communicated with an atheist who wasn’t an arrogant, condescending ass.

The most anyone can claim is that they're not sure about whether God exists or not. In order to state definitively that God does NOT exist, one would have to be omniscient and eternal, to know everything, everywhere, for all time and eternity to know that nothing exists outside himself.

That description would fit someone who claims to know something unknowable, beyond the shadow of a doubt.

14 posted on 07/08/2008 5:53:13 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: atlaw; Sopater

Well, when kids come home from school and tell their parents that their teacher told them that they are just animals, then, yes, I would certainly say that evolution is a tool used for the devaluing of the human being.

Telling people that they are of not more consequence than pond scum as opposed to having inherent value and worth because they are made in the image and likeness of God would certainly have an effect on their value system.

They’ll rise to the level of expectations. Tell them they’re animals and they have no reason not to act otherwise.


15 posted on 07/08/2008 5:59:41 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: John Locke
Has the teaching of evolution exerted a positive influence on society? Have people been enriched, elevated, and enobled by the teaching of evolution? Atheistic evolutionists do not relish taking responsibility for the logical implications and consequences of their belief system.

I must agree with you that the above statement misses the point. Evolution is not taught in order to exert an influence on society, either positive or negative. However, whether or not the ToE is the truth is highly debatable since such a statement is neither scientific nor provable. Therefore, I would argue that to dogmatically teach that the ToE is fact despite the overwhelming evidence against it must have an underlying motivation to influence society, and as the author argues, it only influences society in a negative manner.
16 posted on 07/08/2008 6:00:03 AM PDT by Sopater (A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to the left. ~ Ecclesiastes 10:2)
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To: metmom

Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented. ~ William Provine.

Evolutionism begins and ends with atheism.


17 posted on 07/08/2008 6:02:03 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: YHAOS; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; marron; metmom; MHGinTN; xzins
Thanks for the ping!

OTOH, this beautiful morning, I am more led to rejoice in the joys and infinite peace of knowing my wonderful LORD AND Saviour -- personally -- than I am in watching those who reject Him wallow in their own self-aggrandizing misery and acrimony...

18 posted on 07/08/2008 6:30:28 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...!!)
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To: YHAOS
Well now, atlaw, what’s idiotic about it?

Well gee, just a few examples:

-- Atheism on the one hand, and acceptance of the theory of evolution as the best current scientific explanation for biological development on the other, are not synonymous.

-- The views of Provine are his own, and he does not even remotely speak for all scientists or everyone who accepts the legitimacy of the theory of evolution. (You certainly wouldn't suggest, for example, that the Reverend Moon speaks for all theists.)

-- The proposition that atheism (and/or a scientific understanding of the theory of evolution) led inexorably to teenagers shooting their classmates in Colorado and Finland and to Dahmer going on a murderous crime spree is patently absurd, and it stands in rather bizarre contrast to the remarkable over representation of the religiously devout amongst contemporary rapists, pedophiles, thieves, liars, frauds, and mass murderers, and under representation of the supposedly conflated classes of atheists and scientists amongst such criminals.

19 posted on 07/08/2008 7:42:54 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: metmom
Well, when kids come home from school and tell their parents that their teacher told them that they are just animals [and] that they are of not more consequence than pond scum, [t]hey’ll rise to the level of expectations. Tell them they’re animals and they have no reason not to act otherwise.

If the science teachers in your school district were actually saying anything like this, it would be national news. But of course they're not. This is just another example of the kind of juvenile hyperbole found in the article that leads off this thread.

20 posted on 07/08/2008 7:51:33 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: hosepipe; atlaw; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Whosoever
"You either identify with the animal or with the spirit.."

Good points, hose, every one. Some even positively poetic . . . sniff . . .

21 posted on 07/08/2008 10:38:32 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: YHAOS; atlaw
[ Good points, hose, every one. Some even positively poetic . . . sniff . . ]

To see the look on Atlaws face when he read that would be precious..

22 posted on 07/08/2008 11:07:50 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: metmom
"Proof positive is that there’s fewer atheists in jail than those who profess religion."

That's not a very scientific observation. Fewer atheists than religionists in jail is simply a demonstration that there are by far fewer atheists in the general population than religionists. Not to mention (so I will mention it) that the sound of those slamming jail doors has a remarkable effect on one's religious attitude.

23 posted on 07/08/2008 11:21:19 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: TXnMA
"I am more led to rejoice in the joys and infinite peace of knowing my wonderful LORD AND Saviour -- personally -- than I am in watching those who reject Him wallow in their own self-aggrandizing misery and acrimony..."

Good thought, TXnMA. Maybe some other time . . . just for kicks and giggles.

24 posted on 07/08/2008 11:47:40 AM PDT by YHAOS
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To: atlaw
Atheism on the one hand, and acceptance of the theory of evolution as the best current scientific explanation for biological development on the other, are not synonymous.

A slippery definition of evolution (is it the change in the frequency of alleles in a population, or is it the natural construction of complex life from simple life? And how do you prove if one extrapolates to the other?) makes for bad philosophy taught as physical science. One thing that promoters of evolution should do is make sure they are not straying into philosophy when they advocate for the teaching of evolution. Most of the time, science-oriented promoters of evolution are so ridiculously ignorant of philosophy that they start straying down the road into a sea of unanswerable philosophical questions, ending in atheist territory. It may not be where they started, but it is where they end up.

The proposition that atheism (and/or a scientific understanding of the theory of evolution) led inexorably to teenagers shooting their classmates in Colorado and Finland and to Dahmer going on a murderous crime spree is patently absurd,and it stands in rather bizarre contrast to the remarkable over representation of the religiously devout amongst contemporary rapists, pedophiles, thieves, liars, frauds, and mass murderers, and under representation of the supposedly conflated classes of atheists and scientists amongst such criminals.

There is no doubt that a devaluing of human life is not exclusive to atheism or holding the belief that evolution accurately describes the history of life on earth. Your statement of "over representation of the religiously devout" probably stems more from atheists being more wealthy than religious people. A wealth-crime correlation furthers this line of thinking. Of course, you could argue that the causation is that religious views cause poverty and crime, or that wealth and crime cause people to reach out to religion or non-religion based on what best fits their lifestyle. The cases brought up, are more unique because the perpetrators did not live in a high crime neighborhood/environment and were not poor, so their philosophy influenced them more than other criminals. In such a situation, teaching a low value of human life through atheism and evolution is a factor.

25 posted on 07/08/2008 11:59:03 AM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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To: YHAOS
That's not a very scientific observation. Fewer atheists than religionists in jail is simply a demonstration that there are by far fewer atheists in the general population than religionists.

It's also because as people get more wealthy, they are more inclined toward atheism. It's probably due to less experience of need than the rest of humanity, and the greater illusion of control over one's own life.

26 posted on 07/08/2008 12:02:09 PM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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To: hosepipe

Care to explain what “look” you are referring to and why I would have such a “look”?


27 posted on 07/08/2008 12:28:49 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: atlaw; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; YHAOS
[ Care to explain what “look” you are referring to and why I would have such a “look”? ]

O.K. all my references to "the Spirit".. usually causes some science wonks problems.. on FR.. Actually any metaphysical responses are non sequiters to those claiming to be observers of purely natural scientific persuits.. That "they" are above considerations of metaphysical "things".. as "thingly".. And metaphysics is not observable or testable.. and superstitious..

The "look" being a look of patrimony.. on a good day.. or a look of disdain on a day with no tolerance.. I know the look as I have it myself when dealing with atheists.. and others with what seems to be limited metaphysical vision..

28 posted on 07/08/2008 1:27:55 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: YHAOS
That's not a very scientific observation. Fewer atheists than religionists in jail is simply a demonstration that there are by far fewer atheists in the general population than religionists. Not to mention (so I will mention it) that the sound of those slamming jail doors has a remarkable effect on one's religious attitude.

Exactly. I hear you.

That's what many freepers have been telling the atheists on this forum but they won't listen.

Besides, the FR atheists contend that there is a higher percentage of atheists in the general population of those unincarcerated than there are of those who are incarcerated.

That, to them, constitutes *proof*.

29 posted on 07/08/2008 1:37:51 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: atlaw

That would never make the national news because it’s happening in schools across the country as part of the state mandated curriculum. The only thing that would make the news is them teaching that humans are created in the image and likeness of God. Then the screeching about separation of church and state will be heard far and wide with the obligatory comments about ignorant bronze age goat herders showing up on internet forums.

The ToE most certainly does teach that humans are just animals; descended from apelike ancestors.

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: Homo sapiens

If the ToE doesn’t teach that humans are animals, then, just what do you think the ToE does teach about humans? What’s the alternative?


30 posted on 07/08/2008 1:48:45 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: hosepipe
I know the look as I have it myself when dealing with atheists.. and others with what seems to be limited metaphysical vision..

I'm an atheist? My goodness, the things a person can learn on this board.

31 posted on 07/08/2008 1:52:19 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: atlaw; YHAOS
-- Atheism on the one hand, and acceptance of the theory of evolution as the best current scientific explanation for biological development on the other, are not synonymous.

Not exactly synonymous but very closely intertwined.

While the evolutionist doesn't necessarily have to be an atheist, the atheist, of necessity, must be an evolutionist.

You can have a theist accept the ToE but I see no alternative explanation for how we got here that the atheist has other than the ToE.

32 posted on 07/08/2008 1:55:04 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
"Just animals" and "of no more consequence than pond scum" are your personal extrapolations from the fact that humans are, indisputably, animals. If you wish to present evidence that humans are not animals (and are instead, I guess, non-metabolic machines, or perhaps supernatural mirages), I'm all ears.
33 posted on 07/08/2008 2:02:00 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: atlaw
[ I'm an atheist? My goodness, the things a person can learn on this board. ]

You don't read good.. I called you no such thing.. merely lacking metaphysical vision in my opinion.. You could be a "christian".. I know "christians" that think christ was a myth.. and Jews that think God is a myth.. or legend.. or non sense..

Metaphysics phased into natural science.. completes BOTH..
Atheists make themselves God.. and don't even blink at the ridiculous implications..

34 posted on 07/08/2008 2:29:20 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: atlaw; Sopater
-- Atheism on the one hand, and acceptance of the theory of evolution as the best current scientific explanation for biological development on the other, are not synonymous.

You don’t have to convince me, but you might have trouble convincing the scientists who directly attribute their atheism to science generally, and the ToE specifically. This all, of course, depending very much on which side of their mouth they happen to be speaking about the issue at the moment.

-- The views of Provine are his own, and he does not even remotely speak for all scientists or everyone who accepts the legitimacy of the theory of evolution. (You certainly wouldn't suggest, for example, that the Reverend Moon speaks for all theists.)

Not just Provine, but Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, Pianka, et al, and “every scientist, professor and college student” who applauds their remarks and the like remarks of those of their ilk. You’re right that I would not suggest the Reverend Moon (or many another) speaks for all theists. This forum is witness that the same can not be said of many a ‘scientist’ who has sought to stigmatize us all with the more questionable ideas of a few. Do you deny it?

You’ve chosen to publicly castigate Sopater for some of the ideas he has elected to associate himself with as being maybe the single most idiotic thing you’ve ever seen (all in a very proper manner by criticizing his words and not his person – kudos to you). Sopater has done nothing but ape the tactics of what some would insist are his betters (i.e. The Masters of the Universe). Have you similarly chosen to publicly castigate Provine, Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, Pianka, et al for some of their more idiotic ideas, such as a cold-blooded discussion of the most efficient way to dispose of the world’s surplus population? If not, why not? Perhaps you agree with Provine, Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, Pianka, et al?

-- The proposition that atheism (and/or a scientific understanding of the theory of evolution) led inexorably to teenagers shooting their classmates in Colorado and Finland and to Dahmer going on a murderous crime spree is patently absurd, and it stands in rather bizarre contrast to the remarkable over representation of the religiously devout amongst contemporary rapists, pedophiles, thieves, liars, frauds, and mass murderers, and under representation of the supposedly conflated classes of atheists and scientists amongst such criminals.

Sopater’s point, I think, is that ideas have consequences. Some of the participants of the murderous crime sprees in question have cited the same reason for their behavior. I know of no rapist, pedophile, thief, liar, fraud, or mass murderer who has cited the Judeo-Christian tradition as the cause of their miscreant behavior. I’m sure you can find a few listed on some atheist site or another, but for many a criminal, going to prison represents a “come to Jesus” moment, more than anything else.

35 posted on 07/08/2008 4:11:18 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: hosepipe

I see. You didn’t mean to call me an atheist. All you meant to say was that you’re a real believer and I’m not. Or that I’m a phony Christian, or at least a really lousy one. A kind of “Jesus loves me but He can’t stand you” sentiment. That’s all you meant. Right?


36 posted on 07/08/2008 4:19:03 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: Sopater; wideawake; Yomin Postelnik
I wish someone would explain to me why it is that atheistic evolution, which so subverts opposition to abortion and euthenasia, apparently leaves liberal morality (thou shalt not discriminate/pollute/be a racist/sexist/speciesist/homophobe/islamophobe) untouched. If we are just slime, can't we oppress somebody? Do we always have to have "compassion?"

But no, atheists continue to lead the moral crusades of the Left despite the fact that their underpinning beliefs do not support any sort of morality, whether traditional or liberal.

37 posted on 07/08/2008 4:27:58 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Vayiftach HaShem 'et-pi ha'aton vato'mer leVil`am meh-`asiti lekha ki hikkitani zeh shalosh regalim?)
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To: dan1123
"It's also because as people get more wealthy, they are more inclined toward atheism."

Are you suggesting their egos get in the way? I think that's probably correct. Seems to me, also, that we've been warned about that very thing.

38 posted on 07/08/2008 5:30:34 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: metmom
"FR atheists contend that there is a higher percentage of atheists in the general population of those unincarcerated than there are of those who are incarcerated."

What makes them think so? Do they have any peer-reviewed, statistically valid studies to support this assertion? Have they developed any technics to eliminate possible confounders? Just curious.

39 posted on 07/08/2008 5:39:37 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: atlaw
[ kind of “Jesus loves me but He can’t stand you” sentiment. That’s all you meant. Right? ]

No... but your probably WRONG about other things also..

40 posted on 07/08/2008 5:51:57 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: YHAOS
What makes them think so? Do they have any peer-reviewed, statistically valid studies to support this assertion? Have they developed any technics to eliminate possible confounders? Just curious.

*snicker*

Beats me. I never saw any posted studies or statistics. Just unsupported allegations. Must be force of habit.

41 posted on 07/08/2008 7:47:13 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: hosepipe

Thank you oh so very much for sharing your beautiful insights, dear brother in Christ!


42 posted on 07/08/2008 9:45:35 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: YHAOS
You don’t have to convince me, but you might have trouble convincing the scientists who directly attribute their atheism to science generally, and the ToE specifically.

I'm not sure what your point is here. That there are scientists who are atheists and who view science and the theory of evolution as supportive of their atheism is neither surprising nor, in my view, reprehensible. We live in a society that permits free expression of such views (and I trust you are not suggesting that these scientists be somehow "silenced").

Those scientists have their theological position, and an enormous number of scientists hold opposite theological positions. But the theology of a given scientist is ancillary to the operation of science and to the ongoing investigation of evolutionary theory. If you think this is not the case, then I suggest you browse through, for example, the more than 100,000 journal articles addressing various aspects of evolution available in the PubMed free life sciences archive. You may be surprised at the dearth of theological discussion.

Not just Provine, but Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, Pianka, et al, and “every scientist, professor and college student” who applauds their remarks and the like remarks of those of their ilk.

And taking a contrary position to "Provine, Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, Pianka, et al." are Francis S. Collins, Joan Roughgarden, Francisco J. Ayala, John C. Polkinghorne, Charles H. Townes, George F. R. Ellis, Ian Graeme Barbour, Michael Heller, John D. Barrow, Stanley L. Jaki, Paul Davies, Freeman J. Dyson, etc., etc., etc.

As for your comment about the "ilk" who agree with the theological positions taken by Provine, et al., that is their prerogative. Just as it is my prerogative to disagree with them.

You’re right that I would not suggest the Reverend Moon (or many another) speaks for all theists. This forum is witness that the same can not be said of many a ‘scientist’ who has sought to stigmatize us all with the more questionable ideas of a few. Do you deny it?

To the contrary, I agree. A broad brush demonization of all religion based on the views of a few is as illogical and idiotic as the broad brush demonization undertaken in the article that leads off this thread.

Have you similarly chosen to publicly castigate Provine, Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, Pianka, et al for some of their more idiotic ideas, such as a cold-blooded discussion of the most efficient way to dispose of the world’s surplus population?

Of course I find such extreme positions foolish, and I make my strong disagreement rather well known. As do a great many others (see above).

Perhaps you agree with Provine, Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, Pianka, et al?

And perhaps you agree with Rev. Moon.

Sopater’s point, I think, is that ideas have consequences.

Indeed, they can. But the "point" of the article above is to conflate those who accept the theory of evolution with atheists, and to demonize both as moral cripples who are intrinsically prone to reprehensible, and indeed grotesquely criminal, behavior. That propositional "consequence" is nonsense.

Some of the participants of the murderous crime sprees in question have cited the same reason for their behavior.

And some of the participants in murderous crime sprees cite religion as the reason for their behavior. But I don't find the rationalizations of criminals particularly compelling.

I know of no rapist, pedophile, thief, liar, fraud, or mass murderer who has cited the Judeo-Christian tradition as the cause of their miscreant behavior.

Think, for example, Andrea Yates, Jim Jones, Dena Schlosser, Deanna Laney, Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, and the lesser (though abundant) thieves amongst the televangelist class who take money from the gullible by appeals to Godliness. I know, not true Christians. With which I happen to agree. They're not. They're criminals. But they're criminals who cite their ostensible Christian views as the justification for their crimes.

And I don't think you can so blithely write off the religious motivations for crimes of Islamic origin (whether by Islamic radicals or pursuant to Sharia "justice", and ranging from mass murder to mutilation to stoning to honor killings). While you can claim that these are the product of the "wrong" religion, the article that leads off this thread makes no such distinction, relying instead on a broader, alleged dichotomy between non-religion and religion generally.

Finally, as I noted above, the "point" of the lead-off article is the alleged moral depravity and consequent criminal propensity of atheists and those who accept the theory of evolution. The article uses three, exceedingly tenuous examples as evidence for this ostensible point.

But intrinsic in this proposition is its opposite -- the alleged moral superiority and consequent non-criminal propensity of those who profess religious beliefs. What then, are we to make of the legions of criminals who otherwise held themselves out as religious believers and leaders? (See, e.g., the sexual abuse scandals amongst Catholic clergy, a similar criminal strain amongst Protestant clergy, the frauds perpetrated by the likes of Rev. Charles Shifflett, the Bakkers, Jon Bowers, Benny Hinn, Robert Jennings, Rev. Michael Jude Fay, Creflo Dollar, Todd Bentley, Kent Hovind, Ron Sailor Jr., Rev. Acen Phillips, etc., etc.)

Maybe the conclusion is that crime is an equal opportunity pursuit, and again, that one should put little stock in the professed beliefs and justifications of criminals.

43 posted on 07/09/2008 10:44:28 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: atlaw; Sopater
I'm not sure what your point is here.

Don’t try so hard and maybe it will come to you.

That there are scientists who are atheists and who view science and the theory of evolution as supportive of their atheism is neither surprising nor, in my view, reprehensible

Now, just a dadgumed minute. Aren’t scientists incessantly haranguing us that Science, particularly the ToE, may not be subject to metaphysical conclusions or philosophical value judgments? In fact, that philosophical ruminations have no place in Science whatsoever. Apparently, you disagree.

What I do find reprehensible is that Scientists use scientific theories to reach metaphysical conclusions, but then claim immunity from dissent and criticism by virtue of their scientific superiority. I find it even more reprehensible that Scientists would calmly propose eliminating 90 percent of the population as surplus (and be enthusiastically cheered by their peers for the idea).

We live in a society that permits free expression of such views (and I trust you are not suggesting that these scientists be somehow "silenced").

If that’s what you trust, why do you raise the issue?

Those scientists have their theological position, and an enormous number of scientists hold opposite theological positions.

But, in either instance, their theological position has no bearing on their science. Right?

But the theology of a given scientist is ancillary to the operation of science and to the ongoing investigation of evolutionary theory.

Not when they propose doing away with 90 percent of the world’s population and cite Science as their justification.

You may be surprised at the dearth of theological discussion.

Why should I be surprised when I’ve often been given to understand that philosophical thoughts have no place in science?

And taking a contrary position to "Provine, Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, Pianka, et al." are Francis S. Collins, Joan Roughgarden, Francisco J. Ayala, John C. Polkinghorne, Charles H. Townes, George F. R. Ellis, Ian Graeme Barbour, Michael Heller, John D. Barrow, Stanley L. Jaki, Paul Davies, Freeman J. Dyson, etc., etc., etc.

And, have these contrarians publicly expressed their emphatic dissent to the enthusiastic applause and acclaim of scientists, professors, and students? If they have, they’ve been given the shaft on coverage.

A broad brush demonization of all religion based on the views of a few is as illogical and idiotic as the broad brush demonization undertaken in the article that leads off this thread.

Then you don’t find Sopater’s effort to be (maybe) the single most idiotic thing you’ve seen? It’s possibly in a dead heat with any number of ‘idiotic things’ we encounter in the ongoing evo/crevo wars that roil this forum?

Of course I find such extreme positions [Provine, Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, Pianka, et al] foolish, and I make my strong disagreement rather well known.

That being the case, it appears you’ve gotten the shaft on coverage as well.

And perhaps you agree with Rev. Moon.

Since I had previously made my attitude about Rev. Moon known, you know that I do not. You had not made your attitude known with respect to Provine, Dawkins, Rachels, Sanger, Pianka, et al, until now. I take your point nonetheless. You just didn’t pick a very good time to make it.

Think, for example, Andrea Yates, Jim Jones, Dena Schlosser, Deanna Laney, Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, and the lesser (though abundant) thieves amongst the televangelist class who take money from the gullible by appeals to Godliness. I know, not true Christians. With which I happen to agree. They're not. They're criminals. But they're criminals who cite their ostensible Christian views as the justification for their crimes.

If you’re going to back quote me, please cite the whole relevant quote: I know of no rapist, pedophile, thief, liar, fraud, or mass murderer who has cited the Judeo-Christian tradition as the cause of their miscreant behavior. [continuing] I’m sure you can find a few listed on some atheist site or another, but for many a criminal, going to prison represents a “come to Jesus” moment, more than anything else. Changes the context quite a bit, doesn’t it. People of Science make a very big point of context, so I know it is important. My betters have told me it is.

Good Heavens! This tome grows long and I have wild cherries to pit. More later.

44 posted on 07/09/2008 6:17:29 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: atlaw; Sopater
I know, not true Christians. With which I happen to agree. They're not.

Are all evangelists (tel or not) to be condemned by virtue of their vocation alone? Ayn Rand divides Atheists into two classes; Atheists and militant Anti-theists. Anti-theists would condemn all evangelists as frauds and grifters. In fact, the worst of them would so condemn all Christians, period. I don’t know what standard you (as a Christian) are applying here, but it would take more than their mere existence to excite my condemnation of religionists of any stripe.

They're criminals.

Not until they’ve been convicted of a crime, they’re not. Or, do you deny the presumption of innocence to Christians?

But they're criminals who cite their ostensible Christian views as the justification for their crimes.

I’ve not heard of a Christian declaring that he must not be held accountable for his behavior by virtue of his being a Christian, but I suppose you can dredge up a few if you go to the right atheist website.

And I don't think you can so blithely write off the religious motivations for crimes of Islamic origin (whether by Islamic radicals or pursuant to Sharia "justice", and ranging from mass murder to mutilation to stoning to honor killings).

I’ve not even mentioned Moslems. I’ll let Moslems defend and explain their “motivations,” so help yourself; blast away to your heart’s content.

While you can claim that these are the product of the "wrong" religion, the article that leads off this thread makes no such distinction, relying instead on a broader, alleged dichotomy between non-religion and religion generally.

I’ve made no claims with respect to the “wrong religion.” I read the article in a Christian context and see no reason to take it any other way, or to believe it was written from some other orientation. It mentions the values of the Founding Fathers (Christian men) and Provine’s assertion that free will does not exist, free will being a Christian idea (Moslems, like atheists, deny free will). Finally, all the examples of religious misbehavior you, yourself cite, involve the actions of Christians (Catholics, Protestants, Evangelists). Personally, I think you know you have a weak case, and you’re trying to lessen the fallout by diluting the damage as much as you can.

Finally, as I noted above, the "point" of the lead-off article is the alleged moral depravity and consequent criminal propensity of atheists and those who accept the theory of evolution. The article uses three, exceedingly tenuous examples as evidence for this ostensible point.

I continue to maintain that the point of the article is that ideas have consequences. In fact, the most damning statements in the article are quotes coming directly from the mouths of Atheists themselves. And, I see nothing tenuous about the examples of Dahmer, the Columbine killers, or the Finland Massacre. All three directly and specifically made reference to “natural selection.” I don’t blame Darwin for such misbegotten understandings, but where ever did these sorry humans get such notions? Not from Christians, I think.

But intrinsic in this proposition is its opposite -- the alleged moral superiority and consequent non-criminal propensity of those who profess religious beliefs.

Nonsense. You have to say that, though, in order to promote an argument.

What then, are we to make of the legions of criminals who otherwise held themselves out as religious believers and leaders?

Largely, I think, what you assert below.

Maybe the conclusion is that crime is an equal opportunity pursuit, and again, that one should put little stock in the professed beliefs and justifications of criminals.

Can’t argue with that.

45 posted on 07/09/2008 11:16:17 PM PDT by YHAOS
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