Catholics & Salvation; And the answer is: Maybe.

Stand To Reason ^ | Gregory Koukl

[markomalley]

Catholics have been saved:

1 Pe 3:21 (RSV) Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Rom 6:4 (RSV) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Catholics are being saved:

Phil 2:12 (RSV) Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

2Cor 1:5-7 (RSV) For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. Our hope for you is unshaken; for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort.

Catholics live in hope that we will be saved:

Rom 5:9-10 (RSV) Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

1 Cor 3:11-15 (RSV) For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Thes 5:8-9 (RSV) But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

In other words, rather than seeing salvation as a singular event, we see it as a process that begins with baptism and ends with the particular judgement.

[alnick]

Salvation it is a Shame nobody from the Baptist Group answered Me how the Baptist were Following the Truth when for 2 decades they supported abortion!5th Commandment was my Clue!!haha

I don't know if it's true that the Baptists ever supported abortion, but if at some point in the past they did, they certainly have repented by now.

Repentence is what it's all about. :-)

[A.A. Cunningham]

as I understand it

Therein lies the problem. You and your sources/cohorts don't understand what the teaching of the Church is.

Maybe if Seinfeld had devoted a few episodes to catechesis you and your sources/cohorts wouldn't be so clueless.

[Forest Keeper]

From the article: I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught.

And that is consistent with what we hear around these parts.

Yes, that is exactly what I hear from both RCC and Orthodox Freepers. Some have even admitted to me the term "works-based salvation", as if that's what the Bible taught. I think the author here was both fair and accurate. Thanks for posting. :)

[P-Marlowe]

There is no sure thing about your salvation until the fight is over.

Who is doing the fighting for you?

You?

If so then the battle is already lost.

If it is Christ who is doing the fighting for you, then the battle is already won.

[steadfastconservative]

This writer, like many Protestants, confuses justification with salvation. We in no way merit justification, which is when God infuses His grace into us.
We do are not justified by our works. However, salvation is the attainment of heaven and just just because one has received God’s grace, i.e. been justified, it does not mean that he cannot lose that grace by sinning or that his salvation is assured.

Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” If we are to saved, we must do the will of God. Granted, our works can never be sufficient for our salvation but they are necessary to it.

I never did understand why Protestants think that a one-time infusion of grace is all that needed to get to heaven and that it does not matter at all what one does afterward, how many or what kind of sins he commits, that he is still saved. This is obviously a very flawed theology. But since it makes for an easier life, it’s a popular one.

[DaveMSmith]

Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” If we are to saved, we must do the will of God. Granted, our works can never be sufficient for our salvation but they are necessary to it.

Excellent point. Further,

Matt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done

"Thy kingdom come, signifies, that truth may be received thy will be done, signifies, that it may be received by those who do the will of God" (AE 48)

Good and love (charity) are are received by the will. Truth and wisdom (faith) are received by the understanding. Charity is the essence of faith.

Matt 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!' 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.' 9 But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.' 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' 12 But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.' 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming

""Oil" signifies love and charity; and among the foolish means among those who hear the Lord, that is, read the Word, and do not do it " (AR 433)

Faith and Charity can also be likened to the heat and light from the sun. In winter, there is light but no heat and plants die. In spring and summer, there is heat and plants grow.

[magisterium]

Your point of reference for all of the "errors" you perceive in the Catholic Church begins in the 16th Century. It is cheeky in the extreme to deny even the appellation of "Christian" to groups of people (and here I would certainly include the Orthodox and Oriental Churches) who transmitted the Faith that comes down to us from the Apostles for nearly 1500 years before your buddy John Calvin drew his first breath. The chutzpah found in this attitude is beyond description.

You obviously have no idea what a sandy foundation you build on, focusing on the mere opinions of men who denied a Faith with organic traceability to the time of Christ Himself. That you deny that traceability is your opinion. If the Faith was not accurately transmitted all those centuries wherein you say the Church was apostate, then God's promised providence, found, among other places, in Matthew 28, is totally meaningless. Your very premises insult God Himself, even while your aim is merely to insult Catholics with your statement that they are not even Christian.

[Claud]

I am quoting the Council of Trent to show what the Church definitively taught. I realize that a lot of people don’t accept its authority. Fine. But at least, if you are going to argue against it, know what you’re arguing about.

By your own post, you are showing me that you don’t really understand the Catholic teaching on works either.

The quadriplegic can make interior actions of love every single moment...those are works. He can pray...that’s a work. Even making the “sinner’s prayer” and professing one’s faith is a work. As far as the Muslim example, nothing that we do *apart from Christ* has any merit whatsoever. But everything we do *with Christ* has merit by that very fact.

Secondly, you are quite incorrect that all that the healed folks did in the Gospel was “believe” and be cured without doing anything. The blind man in John 9 had mud and spit put in his eyes and was told to go wash in the pool of Siloam, for example. Suppose he were to refuse to wash, as Our Lord told him? Do you think he would have been saved? Likewise, the man who has faith but who refuses to live out that faith as Our Lord commanded in many many places will be damned.

It’s just as Trent said. It is damnable heresy to believe that man saves himself by his own power. But it is equally damnable heresy to believe that man’s works have nothing to do with his salvation. The orthodox faith is this—that man is saved by his free cooperation with the free and unmerited gift of grace.

[ChurtleDawg]

well, When the Catholic-Orthodox Church was whole, you would know that they condemned works-based salvation (Pelagianism) as heresy.

All salvation is solely the result of God’s good graces and mercy.

The Catholic Church is actually very doctrinaire about this. Read the Catcheism.

The difference is that Catholics don’t think that faith is just believing. We think faith is living. In this sense, it is entirely biblical, as put forward in the Epistle of James and in the Gospels.

[Claud]

Hey Calvinators,

I’d like your comment on these canons. I post them once in a while, but I never get anything more than a “hmmm...interesting.”

These are the first three canons on justification from the big bad Council of Trent, and there are anathemas attached to them...i.e. if you don’t believe these three things, you are a damnable heretic in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

Are they right or are they wrong? If wrong, where wrong?

-Claud

ON JUSTIFICATION

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

[DaveMSmith]

We think faith is living

Amen. It's how we understand faith, too.

[Quix]

YUP.

[Quix]

WELL PUT.

[ChurtleDawg]

I guess that is why they have altar calls-—so they can go “get saved” and not have to worry about it ever again.

It goes with the Reformed, pseudo-Calvinist predestinarian concept-—if you believe, you are one of the elect, and God has already willed you to be saved, so what you do has no importance whatsoever. Likewise, if you are not, it still doesn’t matter.

[Quix]

Nonsense . . .

it’s the ROUTES of transmission that many disagree with the RC’s about.

The RC edifice did it’s sometimes even military best to insure it had a monopoly on all things Christian . . . thankfully

God always had a remnant that was not under the control of the power-mongering political committee glorying bureaucrats.

[Gamecock]

***I never did understand why Protestants think that a one-time infusion of grace is all that needed to get to heaven and that it does not matter at all what one does afterward, how many or what kind of sins he commits, that he is still saved.***

a. Our righteousness is imputed, not infused.
b. When you say it does not matter at all what one does afterward is because Christ cover our sins, past present and future. That doesn't mean we have a license to sin, but as Paul sez: Where sin abounds, Grace abounds even more.

[DaveMSmith]

It goes with the Reformed, pseudo-Calvinist predestinarian concept

Real Salvation takes work on our part... shunning evils as sins, self-examination, recognizing and acknowledging sins, praying for the Lord's help in dealing with the temptations that follow and beginning a new life.

Repentance, reformation and regeneration.

Being born again isn't a one time event but a regeneration process that lasts to eternity, guided by the Lord.

Everyone is predestined for heaven... it's up to the individual how they live their lives.

[chuckles]

....."I am quoting the Council of Trent to show what the Church definitively taught.".....

That was my whole point. Stick to teaching the Bible instead of the traditions of men. We have church denominations supporting abortion, gay marriage, and other apostasy, and would argue with Jesus that they "see" it somewhere in Scripture. To argue that "praying in your heart" is works is confusing to people that are looking for you to "do" something for Christ. If all works is, is praying and worshiping God, then most Christians just can sit home and show their love of God. That's kind of "reaching" for most readers of the Bible. When you repent and believe, you are justified, period. Works for Christ is part of your sanctification. If you confess Christ in your last breath, you are Heaven bound. No works required. By the same token, many are seen doing "works" and never know Jesus Christ. Preaching works salvation is just error.

After you have fallen in love with Christ, you will chose to work for Him, but that will be judged in a separate Judgment with fire. Wood and stubble will be burnt up, but gold and silver will survive. You are already in Heaven when this happens. Even with no works, you are saved. Your clothes may smell of smoke, but you are still in Heaven. You cannot be pried from God's hand.

I don't think we are really that far apart, but you have to be careful to make distinctions to a new believer. Preaching works is slavery to God. I work for my family because I love them, not because of some obligation. I would still be married to my wife if I chose to go fishing every day. I may not be showing my love for them in the proper way, but the marriage is still legally binding.