Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Joseph Smith's First Vision: Fact or Fiction?
MRM ^ | Wesley Walters

Posted on 07/24/2008 12:37:23 PM PDT by Gamecock

The well-publicized story of Joseph Smith's First Vision is not a true account of the origin of the Latter-day Saint movement. The facts are decided against it! First, the historical evidence shows that Joseph Smith, Jr. could not have been stirred by an 1820 revival, to ask which church was true. Second, early Mormon statements do not support his claim that in 1820 he learned through a visitation of the Father and the Son that all existing churches were wrong. Third, the details known about Joseph's early life contradict his assertion that in 1820 he had such a divine visitation and was persecuted by the community for telling such a story.

No 1820 Revival

First, his neighborhood in 1820 experienced no revival such as he described, in which "great multitudes" joined the Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian churches. The Presbyterian records for the Palmyra Presbyterian Church show that it experienced no revival in 1820. (See Geneva Presbytery "Records," Presbyterian Historical Society.) The local Baptist church gained only six on profession of faith the entire year ("Records for the First Baptist Church in Palmyra," American Baptist Historical Society) while the Methodists actually lost members that year as well as the preceding and following years (Minutes of the Annual Conference).

Joseph Smith claimed that his mother, sister and two brothers were led to join the local Presbyterian Church as a result of that 1820 revival. However, four years before he made this claim, his own church paper had stated that the revival in which his family had been led to join the Presbyterian Church took place in 1823 (Messenger & Advocate I, pp. 42, 78). In fact, that account says it was the same 1823 revival that led him to go to his bedroom (not to a sacred grove) and pray "if a Supreme being did exist" and to know that "he was accepted of him." An angel (not a deity) is then reported to have appeared and told him of his forgiveness and of the gold plates.

Joseph's mother, likewise, knew nothing of an 1820 vision. In her unpublished account, she traces the origin of Mormonism to a bedroom visit by an angel. Joseph at the time had been "pondering which of the churches were the true one." The angel told him "there is not a true church on Earth. No not one" (First draft of "Lucy Smith's History," LDS Church Archives).

Furthermore, she tells us that the revival which led her joining the church took place following the death of her son, Alvin. Alvin died Nov. 19, 1823, and following that painful loss she reports that, "about this time there was a great revival in religion and the whole neighborhood was very much aroused to the subject and we among the rest, flocked to the meeting house to see if there was a word of comfort for us that might relieve our over-charged feelings" (p. 55-56).

She adds that although her husband would only attend the first meetings, he had no objection to her or the children "going or becoming church members." There is plenty of additional evidence that the revival Lucy Smith refers to did occur during the winter of 1824-25. It was reported in at least a dozen newspapers and religious periodicals. The church records show outstanding increases due to the reception of new converts. The Baptist church received 94, the Presbyterian 99, while the Methodist work grew by 208. No such revival bringing in "great multitudes" occurred in 1820.

It is clear that the revival Joseph Smith, Jr. described did not occur in 1820, but in 1824. Joseph Smith arbitrarily moved that revival back four years to 1820 and made it fit a First Vision story that neither his mother nor other close associates had heard of in those early days. The historical facts completely discredit Joseph Smith's First Vision story. (For further details, see "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought" Spring 1969, pp. 59-100.)

Bible Reading Vs. Revelations

Furthermore, about 1832 Joseph Smith, Jr. began an account of the origin of the Mormon Church (the only one written in his own hand) that contradicts the official First Vision story he dictated some six years later. The account was never finished. (See the text in BYU Studies, Spring 1969, pp. 278ff.)

In this version Joseph presents himself between the ages of 12 and 15 as being a committed and perceptive reader of the Bible. He claims that his study of the Scriptures led him to understand that all of the denominations were wrong. He wrote: "By searching the Scriptures I found that mankind did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatized from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the new testament."

Six years later, when he set forth his official First Vision story, he decided that he never had reached the firm conclusion that all churches were wrong from his study of the Bible. Instead, he claimed that it was during a vision of the Father and the Son that he first learned this information. He presented this as coming as a great surprise, for he added parenthetically -- "for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong." That statement even contradicted what Joseph had said a few paragraphs earlier in the same account. There he claimed that "I often said to myself ...Who of all these parties are right; or are they all wrong together?" Although the former statement appears in the original manuscript (see BYU Studies above, pg. 290), such a serious contradiction could not be allowed to stand, and after Joseph's death the embarrassing words were edited out.

Even without those words, however, the 1838 official account is in conflict with the 1832 version. In the 1832 account it is his Bible reading that stirs him to seek God, while in the 1838 story it is a non-existent revival that motivates him.

In the 1832 version he claims to have seen only Christ, while in the 1838 rendition both the Father and the Son appear. In the 1832 account he already knows all the churches are wrong, while in the 1838 story it is the dual deities who first inform him of this. Different people may have different views of the same event, but when one person tells contradictory stories about an event, he completely loses his credibility.

Persecution Vs. Acceptance

The 1838 First Vision story not only runs into trouble with Joseph's earlier 1832 version, but it is also contradicted by what we know about his early years in Palmyra. In his official version Joseph claims he was persecuted by all the churches in his area "because I continued to affirm I had seen a vision." However, Orsemus Turner, an apprentice printer in Palmyra until 1822, was in the same juvenile debating club with Joseph Smith. He recalled that Joseph "after catching a spark of Methodism ...became a very passable exhorter in evening meetings" (History of the Pioneer Settlement of Phelps and Gorham's Purchase, 1851, p. 214). Thus, instead of being opposed and persecuted as his 1838 account claims, young Joseph was welcomed and allowed to exhort during the Methodist's evening preaching. Furthermore, no one, either Mormon or non-Mormon, seems ever to have heard of Joseph's encounter with two divine Personages until after 1838. (See this admission in Dialogue, Autumn 1966, pp. 30-31; Saints Herald, June 29, 1959, pg. 21.)

From all available lines of evidence, therefore, Joseph's First Vision story appears to be a fabrication. There was no revival [as described by Smith] anywhere in the Palmyra area in 1820. Joseph was welcomed, not persecuted, by the Methodists. His 1832 account represents him as perceiving from his personal Bible study that all the churches were apostate, while his 1838 account said it "never entered into my heart that all were wrong." His 1832 version claimed only a vision of Christ, while the 1838 story transformed this into the Father and the Son. No one ever heard such a story until after he dictated it in 1838. In the light of such strong contradictory evidence, the First Vision story must be regarded as only the invention of Joseph Smith's highly imaginative mind. The facts and Joseph's words discredit it.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History
KEYWORDS: lds; mormon; mormonbashing; smith
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-199 next last
Offered as a companion to First Vision accounts (of Joseph Smith)
1 posted on 07/24/2008 12:37:24 PM PDT by Gamecock
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

Penetrating expose (by a former Mormon charismatic) here: http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/mormonism.htm


2 posted on 07/24/2008 12:41:50 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock
Fiction.

Next question.

3 posted on 07/24/2008 12:44:01 PM PDT by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock
Let me make three wild and totally crazy predictions regarding this issue:

1) Those who think the Mormon Church is a bunch of bunk will continue to think so and nothing is going to change their minds.

2) Those who think the Mormon Church is true and follow its teachings will continue to think so and nothing is going to change their minds.

3) People on both sides of the issue will continue to post articles, argue and debate in a futile effort to change the minds of those on the other side.

OK - Let the “flaming” begin -—

4 posted on 07/24/2008 1:03:03 PM PDT by POWG
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: POWG

4) At least one Mormon will see the light.

It’s happened with other groups here on FR


5 posted on 07/24/2008 1:05:58 PM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

A friend of mine left the LDS church after 20 years just a couple of months ago after she read material she had not been exposed to for the first 20 years. It does happen. She had converted from Catholicism in her late teens.


6 posted on 07/24/2008 1:35:05 PM PDT by Andyman (The truth shall make you freep.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: POWG

So everyone should be quiet and not waste their time?


7 posted on 07/24/2008 1:42:49 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: POWG
I came to Christ through Free Republic last year during the "romney debates". I was determined to defend my lifelong church against what I just knew were lies. My target was a post filled with referenced quotes by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young claiming to be from the LDS church published "History of the Church" and Journal of Discourses". I went and searched and found them accurate quotes, and was stunned. The entire foundation of the church absolutely crumbled in a matter of hours as I kept reading.

This quote had a special impact on me as it destroyed the false belief ingrained in me of the "Humble Prophet" Joseph Smith.....

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

8 posted on 07/24/2008 2:19:19 PM PDT by SENTINEL (By their works shall ye know them.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: SENTINEL
...And BTW, the "False Swearers" Smith is addressing are several men who had found out that Smith had "married" and bedding their wives in secret, under the supposed command of an angel with a burning sword, and had made it known.

In later years, Smith admitted to practicing polygamy during this timeframe and that he had married the women because his "new and everlasting" covenant had done away with all existing civil marriages.

9 posted on 07/24/2008 2:23:46 PM PDT by SENTINEL (By their works shall ye know them.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

There is no testimony in existence dated within the 50 year period, “1820 to 1870,” claiming the personages in the Vision of 1820 were God the Father, and his Son, Jesus Christ...This story came later as the leaders of the church became bolder.


10 posted on 07/24/2008 2:29:14 PM PDT by SENTINEL (By their works shall ye know them.....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

Those with callused finger tips from pressing the “abuse” button will be along shortly.


11 posted on 07/24/2008 2:45:47 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

Why, oh why, couldn’t Joseph Smith have stayed with seer seeking buried treasure? Oh, wait, he couldn’t find any, no matter how long he into the crystal lying in his white stove pipe hat and investors were getting a little antsy.


12 posted on 07/24/2008 2:55:21 PM PDT by xJones
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; restornu
Those with callused finger tips from pressing the “abuse” button will be along shortly.

I'm amazed Restornu has any fingers left.

13 posted on 07/24/2008 3:10:40 PM PDT by xJones
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: xJones

I’m amazed Restornu has any fingers left.

I must bother you!


14 posted on 07/24/2008 3:33:23 PM PDT by restornu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: restornu

Seeing as how we take almost 300,000 a year from their ranks...


15 posted on 07/24/2008 3:40:02 PM PDT by Stourme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: restornu
I must bother you!

No, you don't really bother me! It is a choice that you have made for now. But don't let any one tell you that you MUST bother me!

Be yourself; FREE RESTORNU!!

16 posted on 07/24/2008 3:59:33 PM PDT by xJones
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Stourme; colorcountry; Pan_Yans Wife; MHGinTN; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; Osage Orange; ...
Seeing as how we take almost 300,000 a year from their ranks...

Source? Link? Factual info on comparison of converts to resignations? Taken from WHAT countries? (Hint: I doubt that Africa is primarily Christian).

17 posted on 07/24/2008 4:01:04 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Eighteen new "I love Romney" threads in the past week,.and counting! Flacking for VP or love-god?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: greyfoxx39; xJones

Millstones and seas come to mind ... Free Restornu!


18 posted on 07/24/2008 4:09:29 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

Fiction. Next question....

19 posted on 07/24/2008 4:37:32 PM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("We must not forget that there is a war on and our troops are in the thick of it!"--Duncan Hunter)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock
Many more problems in Joseph Smith's First Vision can be found ...

Evolution of the First Vision and
Teaching on God in Early Mormonism

By Sandra Tanner

Note: Links at the bottom of the page take you to other articles listing dozens more issues with Joseph's vision.

20 posted on 07/24/2008 4:48:14 PM PDT by Zakeet (Be thankful we don't get all the government we pay for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

I am still trying to figure out how Joe’s mom had an unpublished diary that is published.


21 posted on 07/24/2008 5:29:08 PM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Virginia Ridgerunner
I loved that South Park episode.
22 posted on 07/24/2008 5:31:31 PM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: SENTINEL

God bless, and welcome to the loving family of Grace.


23 posted on 07/24/2008 5:47:23 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Stourme
Yes, I guess if by “their ranks” you mean mankind in general on this planet, since you are spreading to places where they are not on to you yet, then you are getting those numbers.

As far as here in the US, you are not even effective in your own backyard...

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886596

And I am sure with the information age that will soon spread as well...

24 posted on 07/24/2008 5:59:12 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: svcw
Through Joesph Smith all things are possible, didn't you know that...
25 posted on 07/24/2008 6:32:29 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: svcw

I am still trying to figure out how Joe’s mom had an unpublished diary that is published.
_________________________________________

Only a bigot would ask that....

/s


26 posted on 07/24/2008 6:43:03 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

You may accept the conclusion of this poster, or you can study it for yourself and make your own conclusion.

You do not want to be like me when I study about one of the posters here at FR. I already know what he is, and I only accept the information that backs it up. The rest of the information is bad.


27 posted on 07/24/2008 7:15:15 PM PDT by fproy2222 (Jesus is the Christ)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SENTINEL

the “Humble Prophet” Joseph Smith.....

“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)
______________________________________________

That’s amazing...

I knew Joseph Smith said that but I never thought of him really screaming the words out in a boastful fashion, mocking and challenging God like that...

From your words I get a picture of Pater Finch in the Network...

Except Peter Finch was mad as H about something real and tangible (in the Movie)

and Joseph Smith was an egomaniac will only thoughts of himself and his glory...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ELleCQvew&feature=related


28 posted on 07/24/2008 7:39:55 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
That is what makes this so easy. Their own works are our best resource.

Who needs an "anti" site, when the LDS sites themselves are so obliging...

29 posted on 07/24/2008 7:57:18 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: All
I would like to thank you one and all.

It is teachings like you put forth here that caused me and others to research and study about The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

A long time ago, I found there was a lot of facts removed from their original surroundings, and then spoken about to make them look like what they were not, so they could be used to make the conclusions that the writer wanted from before the study was made.

I even find that on occasion there are writers that agree with what I have found to be true, but use the same bad method to put forth the ideas.

That's why I like to study things to there most original writing, and not rely on the summaries and conclusions given by others.

Even mine should be checked out.

Ask questions, be open to the idea that you have not yet found the correct answer, keep questioning.

And ask Father for help.

30 posted on 07/24/2008 10:01:02 PM PDT by fproy2222 (Jesus is the Christ)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

Maybe so. Maybe some Baptists will see the light as well. People change their minds all the time - I hope they all find happiness in whatever they choose.


31 posted on 07/24/2008 10:06:16 PM PDT by POWG
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: restornu

Glad to see you back.


32 posted on 07/24/2008 10:07:30 PM PDT by fproy2222 (Jesus is the Christ)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

That is what makes this so easy. Their own works are our best resource.
Who needs an “anti” site, when the LDS sites themselves are so obliging...
__________________________________________________

Yes they are rather “sweet” arent they ?????

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3,4

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:5-7

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 1:18-25

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Rom 3:9 ¶ What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:

Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:3-18


33 posted on 07/24/2008 10:30:20 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana

Kinda spells it out clearly doesn’t it...


34 posted on 07/25/2008 6:32:11 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana

Kinda spells it out clearly doesn’t it...


35 posted on 07/25/2008 6:32:16 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

ejonesie22, what sect do you belong to?


36 posted on 07/25/2008 7:04:26 AM PDT by Stourme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22
God bless, and welcome to the loving family of Grace.

LOL! ....was that a joke?
37 posted on 07/25/2008 7:06:52 AM PDT by Stourme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Stourme

Stourme, when are you going to furnish the links I requested in post #17?


38 posted on 07/25/2008 7:07:47 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Eighteen new "I love Romney" threads in the past week,.and counting! Flacking for VP or love-god?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Stourme

I belong to the family of Christians from through out the world.

How about you?


39 posted on 07/25/2008 7:14:07 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Stourme

I belong to the family of Christians from through out the world.

How about you?


40 posted on 07/25/2008 7:14:23 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Stourme
For you, considering how the LDS approaches/changes/alterers/show contempt for the Word of God, I guess it would be.

For those who have accepted the true Glory and Grace of the living Christ, well we laugh for more real and spirirtual reasons...

41 posted on 07/25/2008 7:17:20 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Stourme

BTW I noticed you worked around the article I posted...

SOP, by the book, like clockwork.


42 posted on 07/25/2008 7:20:58 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22
I belong to the family of Christians from through out the world.

Oh so you're ashamed of your sect then...a rather cowardly choice you've made IMO.

Why should I give your words any credibility when you don't even have the courage to speak the name of your church?

I don't think the Angels of heaven will be giving you a standing O for your example any time soon.
43 posted on 07/25/2008 8:17:57 AM PDT by Stourme
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Stourme
No, you asked a question, I told you the true answer, for there is no "sect" in Christ's community but one.

Now if you wish to know where I attend church, it is at a Methodist church, a place where I feel very welcome as an Orthodox (Greek) by practice.

That's what differentiates Christians from other so called “faiths”. The love of Christ is universal. We have differences and over the years there have been leaders who sought to take advantage of that for their own, and the evil ones ends. But in the end, the community of Christ cares not what name is on the building, but what spirit is in the heart.

Last night, as I do weekly right now, I sat down with Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptist, Presbyterians, Lutherans and such and discussed God's grace and love as we prepared to go into Prison in a few weeks and share this same message with 40 men thirsting for the word of God.

You seek to foment division where none exists, for we all serve Christ together, with the love and blessing of our various churches and their authorities.

Oddly I have found recently that the follows of the “prophet” Joseph Smith, have been publicly denying others who follow his vision (while oddly “supporting them” in in direct ways) whilst all the while the others clamor to claim the name Mormon, which the head church is running away from..

Perhaps the division amongst the various “Sects” issue lies closer to home for you. If you need advice on that, you can approach any number of ecumenical communities of the true Christ for guidance on peace, love and understanding even in the face of minor differences.

44 posted on 07/25/2008 8:36:57 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

I am so glad you are part of the family...

You have creditability with God, and your brothers and sisters in Christ

:)


45 posted on 07/25/2008 11:35:56 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Tennessee Nana
Thank you.

It is a wonderful family that follows the Truth.

It is funny, having ones credibility questioned by those who believe that God was once a Man, that one must be “certified’ by a mere mortal before seeing the justice of Christ, a “faith” of “seer stones”, “Golden Plates” kingdoms on the moon and other planets and completely non existent civilizations some how totally satiates my hunger for the irony in life...

46 posted on 07/25/2008 11:48:06 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22; Stourme

Amen.

I am a devout reformed Christian and a Presbyterian.

I have worshiped with Lutherans, Baptists, Episcopal, etc.

For a couple of reasons we currently worship and teach Sunday School at a Lutheran church.

I eagerly visit a particular Baptist church when the opportunity presents itself.

Where the name of Christ Jesus is proclaimed I will worship.


47 posted on 07/25/2008 12:00:01 PM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock
"Where the name of Christ Jesus is proclaimed I will worship."

Where ever two or more are gathered...

No secret handshakes, no special underwear, no secret ceremonies or hidden doctrines, no lists of who is in or out based on achievement or tithe.

Just open hearts and open arms...

48 posted on 07/25/2008 12:09:24 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Haley Barbour 2012, Because he has experience in Disaster Recovery.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22
No secret handshakes, no special underwear, no secret ceremonies or hidden doctrines, no lists of who is in or out based on achievement or tithe.

Acts 26:26 For the king knows about these things, and to him I speak boldly. For I am persuaded that none of these things has escaped his notice, for this has not been done in a corner.

49 posted on 07/25/2008 12:15:44 PM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: Stourme; ejonesie22; Gamecock; Tennessee Nana

I am a Mormon (by birth and culture). I was born into a sixth generation LDS family, baptized when I was eight, and Temple Married.

I am a Christian. I place my faith in Christ alone, and not in the earthly ordinances that were proclaimed over me by the Mormon priesthood.

I attend an Evangelical Free Community. I worship there as well as Baptist, Assembly of God, Catholic, and Presbyterian congregations. In fact I love worshipping God in Jesus Christ so much that often I will attend two, or three different Christian services on Saturday and Sunday.

There are not the divisions between sects as Mormonism tells you, Sourme. I suggest you visit with some Christians, and there are some wonderful ones here at FR, and you will become enlightened as to our unity in Christ and the ability to focus on Him and not on our own sinful failings over dots and tittles of style in worship.


50 posted on 07/25/2008 12:18:43 PM PDT by colorcountry (To anger a conservative, lie to him. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-199 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson