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Cardinal Egan Blasts Pelosi (in brilliantly scathing response) [Open]
CMR ^ | August 26, 2008 | Matthew Archbold

Posted on 08/26/2008 10:37:18 AM PDT by NYer

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To: workerbee

Couldn’t have said it better and, I might add, didn’t. ;-)


101 posted on 08/26/2008 3:09:30 PM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: Alberta's Child

I said that about Obama. Anyone who could deny the survivor of an abortion medical treatment and leave that tiny human soul to gasp out its last in a bedpan in a broom closet doesn’t have what it takes to lead this nation. All issues after that “judgment” he’s so famous for are moot.


102 posted on 08/26/2008 3:12:35 PM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: netmilsmom

Give Benedict XVI a little more time. I think you’ll be seeing some folks transferring their church affiliations across town to some of the more liberal denominations or, God willing, changing their positions.


103 posted on 08/26/2008 3:15:08 PM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: Pyro7480
The Speaker only would need to open up her Bible

1 Cor. 11: 23-29
I doubt that the same airhead who fabricated a quote from "the Old Testament" (could she name a single book if she had to?) would even know where to where to begin looking for that passage.
104 posted on 08/26/2008 3:28:28 PM PDT by Zero Sum (Liberalism: The damage ends up being a thousand times the benefit! (apologies to Rabbi Benny Lau))
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To: bcsco

Technically, that is up to her Bishop to tell her. But it’s still nice to see more in the hierarchy speak up. Pro-choice Catholics - and I know many - will be shocked. It’s a pity that such teachings haven’t been made more explicit over the years.


105 posted on 08/26/2008 3:39:02 PM PDT by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: sitetest

That’s just a pity.


106 posted on 08/26/2008 4:00:03 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: Jaded

Personally, I would drive to see it!


107 posted on 08/26/2008 4:01:06 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: Antoninus
Frankly, I'm surprised Egan said this. He's been pretty low-key on this subject.

Recall that the Holy Father recently spent a few evenings at his residence :-) That HAD to make an impression.

108 posted on 08/26/2008 4:04:24 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: quadrant
Where did Ms Pelosi attend school/college? Did she receive any sort of Catholic education at all?

Does it really matter? She's a professional politician; she's in it for herself, not God.

109 posted on 08/26/2008 4:07:23 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: Constitutions Grandchild
Dear Constitutions Grandchild,

“I have the feeling she is guilty of hearing what she wants to hear.”

That may be, but that wasn't what you said to which I replied.

You originally said:

“I have a feeling she simply shows up at Mass, receives the sacraments and, occasionally, hears someone tell her what is in the Bible and how she should believe it.”

This isn't quite what happens at Mass, and thus, I pointed out what does actually happen at Mass. First, she does not “occasionally” hear “someone tell her what is in the Bible.”

Rather, as often as she goes to Mass, she hears the Word of God, itself. Every time. Not occasionally. Not what someone tells her is in the Bible, but rather, the Word of God, itself.

You may be right that it may go in one ear and out the other, or that in her own mind, she might twist it all around.

But as often as she attends Mass (and I'm made to understand that she attends Mass generally weekly), she directly hears the Word of God.


sitetest

110 posted on 08/26/2008 4:11:24 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: bcsco
Perhaps Cardinal Egan didn't touch the Communion issue out of deference to the bishops/Cardinals in Pelosi’s hometowns of D.C. and San Francisco. In any case, this was a powerful statement by Egan, who generally keeps a very low profile.
111 posted on 08/26/2008 4:20:56 PM PDT by utahagen
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To: bcsco; chimera
Pelosi herself put them in this position. Whatever action they take, they need to insure she understands the gravity of her sin. That in itself makes it a personal matter between herself and her Church. Perhaps we may never know what the results turn out to be.

Just to clarify the situation, the Catholic Church follows Scripture on these matters, specifically, 1 Corinthians 11:27-29.

As so many others have already pointed out, Pelosi may attend Mass where she will hear Scripture read but, like others in her mindless situation, might feel embarrased to not go up for communion. Hence, the Church views this as unworthy reception of communion. Specifically, a person who eats and drinks unworthily is guilty of profaning what is holy. In the above passage, St. Paul warns that "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord." While we cannot reasonably expect that every Eucharistic Minister of Holy Communion can deny her communion (they have no way of knowing whether or not she repented of her sin), we do have the assurance that God knows. In essence, she excommunicates herself, 'latae sentiae' (by her own accord).

112 posted on 08/26/2008 4:25:47 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: Patriotic1
Technically, that is up to her Bishop to tell her.

I understand that now. Her Archbishop came out with a news release that quotes one from a group of other Bishops. Whether that's followed up on remains to be seen.

I am happy to see other Bishops make statements; especially the one from Archbishop Egan, and from the Archbishop of Denver who takes Biden (and by extension Pelosi) to task regarding the taking of the Sacrament. Both were powerful in their own right.

113 posted on 08/26/2008 4:26:20 PM PDT by bcsco (Obama's just biden his time until McCain wins in November.)
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To: utahagen
Perhaps Cardinal Egan didn't touch the Communion issue out of deference to the bishops/Cardinals in Pelosi’s hometowns of D.C. and San Francisco.

You may well be right on that. Pelosi's Archbishop gave a news release that quoted a news release made earlier. It will be interesting to see whether it is followed up further.

114 posted on 08/26/2008 4:28:31 PM PDT by bcsco (Obama's just biden his time until McCain wins in November.)
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To: NYer; All

So, she may or may not attend the table based on her own cognizance. Should she attend without having first repented, she may be given the Sacrament by Ministers unfamiliar of her situation, she’s still apart from God and in excommunication by her own accord.

I think I understand that now. I want to thank you, and all who have responded, and put up with one trying to understand a somewhat complicated issue. Your tolerance of my persistence is greatly appreciated.


115 posted on 08/26/2008 4:35:53 PM PDT by bcsco (Obama's just biden his time until McCain wins in November.)
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To: NYer

Oh! This is getting good!


116 posted on 08/26/2008 4:43:15 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: netmilsmom; victim soul; NYer; bcsco
Dear netmilsmom,

How, precisely, do you believe that Ms. Pelosi, or other pro-abort Catholic politicians, has/have incurred excommunication latae sententiae?


sitetest

117 posted on 08/26/2008 4:48:15 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Antoninus; eastsider

Cardinal Egan finally found the bully pulpit that O’Connor used to use. Better late than never.


118 posted on 08/26/2008 4:49:34 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: sitetest

How do you think they haven’t?


119 posted on 08/26/2008 4:55:09 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: ELS; eastsider
Cardinal Egan finally found the bully pulpit that O’Connor used to use. Better late than never.

Indeed! God bless that sainted man. I will NEVER forget his funeral and the shamed expression on the faces of then President Clinton, his wife Hillary and VP Gore and his wife.

At one point in the sermon, O'Connor's hand picked homilist said, "What a great legacy he has left us in his constant reminder that the Church must always be unambiguously pro- life."

There was a beat and then applause broke out.  It grew louder, increasing as the cameras fixed on the Clinton-Gore party showing them on screens throughout the cathedral.  Cardinal Law attempted to quiet the crowd with his hand, when suddenly the congregation began to stand up, applauding in a wave that moved from the back of the church to the front.  If it hadn't been a funeral they would have cheered.  It was a defiant, pivotal moment.  

Cardinal John O'Connor gets last word at his own funeral

120 posted on 08/26/2008 4:58:42 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: sitetest

Now since I found the right reference, as you know, anyone who has an abortion is excommunicated. Also accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.

She isn’t promoting abortion so no one can get one.


121 posted on 08/26/2008 4:58:42 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: netmilsmom
Dear netmilsmom,

“How do you think they haven’t?”

Simple - until one is shown to be excommunicated, it is reasonable to assume that one is not.


sitetest

122 posted on 08/26/2008 5:01:38 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: netmilsmom
Dear netmilsmom,

“Also accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.

“She isn’t promoting abortion so no one can get one.”

Not sure what you're saying here.

I'll ask again - how does one come to the conclusion that Ms. Pelosi - and other pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians - is/are excommunicated?


sitetest

123 posted on 08/26/2008 5:03:44 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: chimera; bcsco
Say the bishop does put forth such an order, and the local churches obey it. Pelosi then repents and receives absolution for her sin. How are the priests and laypersons who were ordered not to dispense communion to her to know of her repentance (confession is supposed to be private) and she is now allowed to receive the sacrament?

When a public person who has sinned publicly repents of their sin, it must be done publicly. Unless the Democrat party changes its platform, none of these national Dem politicians will be publicly renouncing their pro-abortion position (pro-abort Repubs are a different kettle of fish). They can rationalize away while here on earth, but if they do not have a spiritual conversion, they will have a very unpleasant meeting with their Maker (not to mention the rest of eternity).

124 posted on 08/26/2008 5:09:09 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: sitetest

If you have an abortion, it’s a latae sententiae.
If you are a person without whom an abortion could not be obtained, you are also latae sententiae.

Without Nancy and her ilk, abortion would not be legal and hard to obtain. She is an “accomplice who is not named in the law because without her assistance the violation of the law (the abortion) would not be committed.”


125 posted on 08/26/2008 5:09:41 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: netmilsmom
Dear netmilsmom,

“If you are a person without whom an abortion could not be obtained, you are also latae sententiae.”

No, that's not what the canon says.

What does it say precisely?


sitetest

126 posted on 08/26/2008 5:15:00 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4W.HTM

This is the reference given for [14] here...
Latae sententiae is a Latin term used in the canon law of the Catholic Church meaning literally “given (laid down) sentence”.

Officially, a latae sententiae penalty follows automatically, by force of the law itself, when the law is contravened.[1] A latae sententiae penalty may be either one of excommunication, interdict, or suspension. Excommunication prohibits the exercise of certain baptismal rights, and may involve restrictions on participation in liturgical events and church governance, and the reception of church benefits.[2][3] An interdict involves the same liturgical restrictions as excommunication, but does not affect participation in church governance.[4] Suspension, which affects only members of the clergy, affects all or some acts of power of orders, governance, or functions attached to an office.[5]

In the code of Roman Catholic canon law currently in force, there are eight instances when a person may incur excommunication latae sententiae. Unless the excusing circumstances outlined in canons 1321-1330[6] are verified, the following persons incur excommunication latae sententiae:

an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic;[7]
a person who throws away the consecrated Eucharistic species or takes and retains them for a sacrilegious purpose;[8]
a person who uses physical force against the Pope;[9]
a priest who absolves an accomplice in a sin against the sixth commandment (the ban on adultery) except in danger of death;[10]
a bishop who ordains someone a bishop without a pontifical mandate, and the person who receives the ordination from him;[11]
a confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal of confession;[12]
a person who procures a completed abortion;[13] and
accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.[14]
Various other persons incur excommunication latae sententiae by papal decree, including:

a person who violates the secrecy of a papal election, or who interferes with it by means such as simony;[15]
a woman who is ordained as a priest or a bishop who ordains a woman as a priest.[16]
Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:

using physical force against a bishop;[9]
attempting to preside at Eucharist, or giving sacramental absolution, when not a priest;[10]
falsely denouncing a confessor for soliciting a penitent to sin against the sixth commandment;[17] and
a perpetually professed religious who attempts marriage.[18]
If the ecclesiastical authority notices someone incurring what it considers a latae sententiae penalty, it may declare that the person has done so. However, the punishment is in effect since the perceived fault was committed, and the declaration simply aims to ascertain what the Church considers a fact.

A latae sententiae penalty differs from a ferendae sententiae (sentence to be made) one. If one commits an ecclesiastical offense for which a ferendae sententiae punishment is prescribed, the penalty will only take effect when imposed by the competent ecclesiastical authority.[1]

Note that latae sententiae is an adjectival phrase accompanying a noun, such as “excommunication”. In connection with a verb, the corresponding adverbial phrase is in ablative absolute form, as in: “He was excommunicated lata sententia.”


127 posted on 08/26/2008 5:26:28 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: ELS

I know they are apart from God. That goes without saying. It’s how it is handled by the Church that has befuddled me. And I’m unsure why you say her repentance must be public. Because her sin was public? That makes no sense. Repentance is between oneself and God. Why must it be a public spectacle? Also, why are Repub pro-choicers a “different kettle of fish”?


128 posted on 08/26/2008 5:31:33 PM PDT by bcsco (Obama's just biden his time until McCain wins in November.)
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To: Claud

LOL! In our dreams. Although, given the recent momentum we may yet see it in our lifetimes.


129 posted on 08/26/2008 5:32:11 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: bcsco

Pelosi, being a self proclaimed ardent Catholic, knows good and well that, as an unrepentant proponent of infanticide, she is not to be receiving Communion and there is no question about that fact.


130 posted on 08/26/2008 5:41:24 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: bcsco
In addition, she's been called on the carpet before. You apparently haven't been paying attention

Published: February 1, 2007

A priest writes to Nancy Pelosi
“If you can kill a baby in the womb, Nancy, why not outside of it?”

Fr. John Malloy, pastor of Saints Peter and Paul Church in San Francisco, penned this “Open letter to Nancy Pelosi,” which was recently published in the parish bulletin. We reprint it here with Fr. Malloy’s permission.

Nancy, you are fooling yourself and I fear fooling many good Catholics. You are simply not in sync with the Catholic Church. Until you change your non-Catholic positions, you should stop calling yourself Catholic. Your record shows that you support embryonic stem cell research, Planned Parenthood, contraception, family planning funding, allowing minors to have an abortion without parental consent, and are against making it a crime to harm a fetus, etc. etc.

The fact that you favor married priests and women priests certainly would not classify you as conservative, but your answer to the question are you a conservative Catholic was:
“I think so. I was raised in a very strict upbringing in a Catholic home where we respected people, were observant, were practicing Catholics, and that the fundamental belief was that God gave us all a free will, and we were accountable for that, each of us. Each person had that accountability, so it wasn’t for us to make judgments about how people saw their responsibility and that it wasn’t for politicians to make decisions about how people led their personal lives; certainly, to a high moral standards, but when it got into decisions about privacy and all the rest, then that was something that individuals had to answer to God for, and not to politicians.”

That sounds fair and tolerant, but your record belies high moral standards.

The NARAL rates you 100% pro-abortion. Your statement: “To me it isn’t even a question. God has given us a free will. We’re all responsible for our actions. If you don’t want an abortion, you don’t believe in it, [then] don’t have one. But don’t tell somebody else what they can do in terms of honoring their responsibilities. My family is very pro-life. They’re not fanatics and they’re not activists. I think they’d like it if I were not so vocally pro-choice.”

Do we not elect politicians to make laws that help people honor their responsibilities, such as protecting life itself? Can politicians not tell someone else not to kill? If you can kill a baby in the womb, Nancy, why not outside of it? Oh wait, you are in favor of partial birth abortion, so-called because the baby sticks out of the “mother” about halfway, while the “doctor” sucks out the baby's brain. That seems comparable to the choice the Nazis made killing six million Jews.

Yes, Nancy, we (together with your pro-life family) would all like it if you were not so vocally pro-choice, i.e. pro-death. Until your choice is in line with Catholic doctrine, please, Nancy, do not receive the Eucharist when you attend Mass.

Rev. John Malloy, SDB
San Francisco, CA

© California Catholic Daily 2007. All Rights Reserved.

131 posted on 08/26/2008 5:51:27 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Tex_GOP_Cruz

It’s nice to see the Catholic leadership putting their foot down in the media about the unborn. It’s about time.


132 posted on 08/26/2008 5:52:01 PM PDT by getmeouttaPalmBeachCounty_FL (****************************Stop Continental Drift**)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

My only issue with the priest’s letter is that he says he fears she is “fooling many good Catholics.” I am not a Catholic, but I feel pretty confident in saying that Ms. Pelosi is hardly going to fool “good” Catholics who actually know what their Church teaches and follow its teachings.

Otherwise, good for him. He nails it right on the head.


133 posted on 08/26/2008 5:54:36 PM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: netmilsmom
Dear netmilsmom,

I see in there that excommunication latae sententiae obtains for those who procure completed abortions. I am made to understand that this applies as well to those who give formal assistance to a specific case of a completed abortion.

But the first question is whether pro-abortion politicians are giving formal assistance to specific acts of completed abortion. It seems to me that one can argue that rather, they are making no obstacle to abortion, rather than that they are actively assisting in the act of abortion.

For those who also believe that the government should pay for abortions, the argument that they are not actively assisting in the procurement of abortion is weakened. But for folks who merely state that the government ought not prevent abortions, the answer to the question is much less clear.

The other difficulty is the distinction between proximate cooperation and remote cooperation. It's difficult to argue that pro-abortion politicians are giving proximate cooperation to individual completed abortions. And generally, I'd always been under the impression that severe penalties in Church law usually are not imposed for folks whose cooperation with evil is remote.

Not too long ago, some Mexican bishops excommunicated Mexican legislators for voting for pro-abortion laws in Mexico. Pope Benedict was initially quoted as approving of that action. That would strongly suggest that pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians ARE excommunicated latae sententiae. (We should remember that the bishops who were claiming that these politicians were excommunicated were not affording the politicians any canonical due process - thus, any excommunication would have to be latae sententiae).

Yet, a day or so later, the official word from the Vatican was that that was not what Pope Benedict actually meant.

I think that there are other potential grounds to claim that pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians are excommunicated latae sententiae. But these other grounds, much as your suggested grounds, are speculative.

Even Archbishop Burke and other relative “hardliners” haven't suggested that these folks are excommunicated latae sententiae (at least as far as I'm aware), only that they should not be admitted to Holy Communion. And indeed, that is what then-Cardinal Ratzinger said in his letter to the American bishops in 2004 - that pro-abort politicians should be excluded from the Blessed Sacrament - NOT that they are excommunicated latae sententiae.

I think that it would be better for us to stay on the firmer ground of asserting that these politicians should be denied the Blessed Sacrament. I think the question of excommunication latae sententiae is an open question, and not within the competence of any of us here.


sitetest

134 posted on 08/26/2008 5:56:11 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

I am not a Vatican lawyer. I believe that those who openly condone and have a hand in keeping abortion legal do excommunicate themselves.

You see it differently and until some action is taken, we really don’t know the answer.


135 posted on 08/26/2008 6:02:39 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: ELS; bcsco; NYer
Thank you all for this discussion. I have learned a lot.

Poster ELS brought up the concept of a public repentance for a an elected official who grievously sins in a public manner. I can see where that would be appropriate in a case like this where there is the potential for leading large numbers of people astray, and allow them the chance to see a real-life example of repentance and redemption. Can you cite any Cannon Law or Encyclical that addresses this issue? There is the Scriptural basis for the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confessing our sins to each other) that I suppose could be extended to the public realm if appropriate, but I'm wondering if there are other references?

136 posted on 08/26/2008 6:03:11 PM PDT by chimera
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To: bcsco
Her pro-abortion stance is widely known. A staunch, obstinate and public supporter of abortion is not to receive Holy Communion. She is in a state of (public) mortal sin. In order to right the wrong that she has committed it must be made widely known that she has changed her ways. If her conversion is not made public, then many faithful will be scandalized by seeing her receive Holy Communion when they believe/know her to advocate a position opposed to the Church's teaching.

Of course, there is the private reconciliation between her and God. This must happen before the public renunciation of her pro-abortion position.

137 posted on 08/26/2008 6:04:48 PM PDT by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: NYer
And other bishops -- even Pope Benedict!

WHAT ALL CATHOLICS SHOULD DO CONCERNING NANCY PELOSI
[OPEN] Pelosi a 'religious heretic,' says former GOP Rep.
Cardinal Egan Corrects Speaker Nancy Pelosi

Poll: Majority of Americans Disagree With Barack Obama on When Life Begins
The Democratic Left Promotes Anti-Catholic Hatred
Biden's Bishop Will not Permit Him, Even if Elected VP, to Speak at Catholic Schools
EDITORIAL: Abortion, Forced Eviction from our First Home -- the Womb
Breaking: Pelosi's home archdiocese republishes USCCB statement

Bishops say Pelosi misrepresented abortion teaching in TV interview
The Democrats and the Abortion Wars - Are Obama and Pelosi dodging the life-and-death question?
Bishops Respond to House Speaker Pelosi's Misrepresentation of Church Teaching Against Abortion
The Crucial Catholic Vote: Does It Exist?
Bishops: Democratic VP Nominee Should Refrain from Communion

Cardinal Egan Blasts Pelosi (in brilliantly scathing response) [Open]
Archbishop scolds pro-choice Biden
Denver Archbishop scolds pro-choice Biden
Bishops say Pelosi misrepresented abortion teaching in TV interview
Washington Archbishop rips Pelosi

Washington archbishop rips Pelosi on abortion
Washington archbishop rips Pelosi on abortion
OPEN]On the Separation of Sense and State: (Chaput Teaching on Pelosi)
Archbishop Wuerl on the Church’s Constant Teaching on Abortion
Washington archbishop rips Pelosi on abortion

Bishops Correct Speaker Nancy Pelosi: 'On the Separation of Sense and State'
Pelosi lies about Catholicism and abortion
Catholic Bishop: Pro-Abortion VP Candidate Joe Biden Should Skip Communion
When Does Human Life Begin? Obama's Pro-Abortion Answer Hill Downfall
Bishops Correct Speaker Nancy Pelosi: On the Separation of Sense and State

Denver archbishop slams Pelosi on Church teachings and abortion
Pelosi, Abortion & St. Augustine - UPDATED
Catholic leaders react to Biden pick; Bishops say he should refrain from Communion
Obama Supporter On FNC: Jesus Would Be O.K. With Abortion
How should Catholics vote? [editorial from the LA Times]

"Catholic" Speaker Pelosi Denies that Catholicism Condemns Abortion
Catholics Against Joe Biden (Link to site) [Open]
Choice of Biden Re-Opens Catholic Wound; Own Bishop Outspoken on Obligation to Protect Life
"Prudent And Nuanced View”( LA Times wants Archbishop Burke to shut up about abortion)
“Help me out here, Madam Speaker” ( “I don't think anybody can tell you when life begins” )

Biden's Catholic faith offers risks, rewards
Nancy Pelosi on when life begins (Smarter than Obama?
Obama, Biden, Foreign Policy and the Catholic Vote
The "Abortion Joe" Biden will get his ticket a record low Catholic vote
Obama's Falsehood: The Truth About His Abortion Record

EDITORIAL:Obama Chooses Biden and the Battle for Life is Engaged
Joe Biden Makes It Easier for Catholics to Oppose Pro-Abortion Barack Obama
Obamacide
McCain attacks Obama on pro-abortion stance
Barack Obama's Sole Article in Harvard Law Review Promotes Abortion

Why Obama Really Voted For Infanticide
Obama's Born-Alive Problem
William A. Donohue: Catholic Left Hangs Itself (5/22/08) [Abortion]
"Until they have reformed their lives" ( No Holy Communion for pro-abortion Catholics!)
African American Pro-Life Leader Tells Barack Obama: No We Can't OK Abortion

OBAMA AND INFANTICIDE (Reinhard)
They'd be angry at Obama if he was caught saying the N-word. Supporting Infanticide—Not so much.
In 2002, Barack Obama Supported Infanticide and I've Got the Transcript of His Words
Explosive Audio Found - Obama arguing against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act - Audio
Transcript of Obama's verbal opposition to Born Alive on the IL Senate floor

Explosive Audio Found Obama arguing against BAIPA
Audio Found Obama arguing against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Abortion foes using racism to make point at DNC [Randall Terry / Operation Rescue]
Why Obama couldn't answer Warren's baby question
Smoking gun? Papers expose Obama's 'infanticide' vote

EXTRA: Archbishop Burke on Catholics who Support Abortion
Senator Barack Obama Wants You to Pay for Abortions
US Bishops Look at Election
John McCain Will Not Pick Pro-Abortion Running Mate, Rules Out Tom Ridge
Vote for Real Hope and Change [Archbishop Chaput]
Catholics who support abortion should not receive Communion, says Archbishop Burke (again :-)
CNN Again Omits Part of the Story Concerning Obama’s Abortion Votes

Obama Flunks Rick Warren's Abortion Question
Obama and the Black American Family Don’t Jibe [Abortion]
Obama Caught Red-Handed in Abortion Lie
Archbishop Naumann hopes Obama realizes Sebelius is a bad Catholic advisor
Obama Facing Attacks From All Sides Over Abortion Record

OBAMA'S EXTREMISM - HIS ABORTION RECORD IS NO LIE
Barack Obama - Abortion Extremist
Barack Obama lied about babies ‘Born Alive’ vote then smeared Corsi
Babies' Rights and the Definition of Marriage [re: Forum responses by Obama vs. McCain]
Opinion: Doug Kmiec on McCain v. Obama at Saddleback

Obama Cover-up on Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Continues to Unravel...
Life Lies: Barack Obama and Born-Alive
Operation Rescue founder to distribute new flyer: "Is it Immoral to Vote for Obama for President?"
Obama Calls Pro-Lifers Liars
Obama Jun 15: “fathers…at conception” August 16 “answering that question is above my pay grade”

Niece of Martin Luther King Jr. to Lead Prayer Vigil Outside Largest U.S. Abortion Centre
Campaign Admits Obama Lied About Abortion Vote, Media Asleep
Obama “pay grade” comment purposely ignores SCIENTIFIC FACT that LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION
Barack Obama Repeats False Claim Abortions Haven't Declined Under Bush
Obama and Abortion

Obama Says Right to Life Coalition Is Lying About His Record
Barack Obama Says Pro-Life Group Lying About His Pro-Infanticide Votes
Obama's infanticide problem>
Obama and McCain Woo Catholics
Obama's Christian Creds Vs. Abortion and Infanticide

Obama's 10 reasons for supporting infanticide
Mommy Won't Help Dems on Abortion
Abortion Leader Confirms that Democratic Platform is More Pro-Abortion than Ever
Obama More Than An Abortion Radical
Obama’s Abortion Lies (Obama cover-up on born-alive survivors bill)

Life with Obama: Abortion champion
Knighting the Catholic Vote (K of C urging Catholics to vote pro-life)
Linda Chavez: Obama’s Catholic problem
Catholic Voters and 2008
Barack Obama Supports the Murder of Newborn Infants

Obama Lied About Abortion Record
What Barack Obama defended three times: Live Birth Abortion
[OPEN] Supreme K of C Calls for Real "Change" on Abortion and Catholic Revolt against Obama Nation
Obama's Catholic Problem ( Linda Chavez )
Obama’s View on Abortion May Divide Catholics ( "May Divide?" )

Obama loses 26 points among Catholics
Barack Obama's Wife Michelle to Join Hillary Clinton at Pro-Abortion Dinner
OPINION: Senator Obama and the Wall of the Womb
Barack Obama's Pledge to Overturn Every Pro-Life Abortion Law One Year Old
Obama Worse than Clintons on Abortion Says National Right to Life Leader Interview-SCOTUS Critical

Roman Catholics for Obama '08
OBAMA TO CATHOLICS: NO VOUCHERS
How can Catholics for Obama rationalize their support for the pro-choice candidate?
Obama’s director of Catholic Outreach ‘dodges’ opportunity to reach Catholics
Barack Obama Slams John McCain For Opposing Abortion, Activist Judges

Catholics and Obama
COMMENTARY: Quandry for Catholics At Election Time
The Latest Refinement (Obama on Abortion)
CNN Runs Biased News Story Covering Up Barack Obama’s Pro-Abortion Record
Jill Stanek: Obama's biggest lie about supporting infanticide

The Battle for Catholic Voters
New Report Indicates Voters Most Interested in Barack Obama’s Position on Abortion
Deal Hudson: Obama and Infanticide?
Ad asks Obama: ‘If fatherhood begins at conception, when does life begin?’
Embryonic stem-cell research immoral, unnecessary, bishops say

Catholics should not vote for Obama
Catholic Caucus: It is a sin to vote/support Obama/DNC [abortion]
More Catholics leaning towards Democrats, poll reports (really not Catholics)
The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)
Obama's Abortion Bombshell: Unrestricted Abortion....

NARAL Catholics Line Up for Obama
Editorial: Disagreeing with Doug Kmiec One More Time
State-Funded Embryo Research "Makes Taxpayers Complicit in Killing", say Bishops
McCain Meets Privately with Fr. Pavone - Says Constitutional Right to Life Applies to Unborn
Faithful Citizenship: “Catholic Vote” is very sought after

Has Obama dissolved his Catholic advisory council?
Commentary: Faithful Citizenship and the Formed Conscience
Catholic League: Where's Obama's 'Catholic Advisory Council'? [Not to be found!]
Right-wing Christians beginning to lean left (Misleading headline)
Catholics Debate Obama Vote

US Bishops Urge Voters to Give Priority to Life [Ecumenical]
Corralling the Catholic vote: Political necessity or pipe dream?
DOUG KMIEC: Catholic Reasons for Hope in the General Election
EDITORIAL: Why This Catholic Dreads the Campaign
The Catholic-Obama Problem (Pope Benedict XVI instructs Catholics about pro-abortion candidates)
Thoughts On ‘Roman Catholics For Obama’

How Obama's Catholics Will Dodge the Infanticide Question
Catholic Pro-Life Leader Feuds With Barack Obama's "Catholic" Backers
McCain and the Pope: McCain cannot win in November without the Catholic vote (Reagan re-visited?)
Catholics Cannot Vote for Pols Who Support Abortion, Except for Morally Grave Reasons: KY Bishops

138 posted on 08/26/2008 6:06:48 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: y6162
I don’t think the church is a she...is she?

"Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church." Ephesians 5:23-32

139 posted on 08/26/2008 6:09:05 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: netmilsmom
Dear netmilsmom,

“I am not a Vatican lawyer.”

Me, neither.

“I believe that those who openly condone and have a hand in keeping abortion legal do excommunicate themselves.”

First, we're Catholic. It doesn't matter what we think or believe. What is true is objectively true whether we believe it or not. What is false is objectively false whether we believe it or not.

Second, are you saying that anyone who merely condones abortion is excommunicated latae sententiae, or only those who condone AND “have a hand in keeping abortion legal”?

I'm pretty sure that lay Catholics who privately hold the opinion that abortion should be legal are not excommunicated latae sententiae.

“You see it differently...”

It's not that I see it differently. I can make the case either way, to the limits of my limited knowledge and ability. It's just that it is a question, as you admit, that HAS NOT BEEN CLEARLY ANSWERED.

And thus, it's just prudence to only go so far as we have knowledge to go. We know that the ground is firm to state that these politicians should not be permitted to receive the Blessed Sacrament.

That's what we should stick to until folks with the appropriate ecclesial authority say otherwise.


sitetest

140 posted on 08/26/2008 6:10:33 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest
The question of the proximity or remoteness of cooperation with evil for pro-abortion political figures is one aspect of this, but the other is the issue of a public figure who professes allegiance to the Catholic Faith standing in clear opposition to a fundamental teaching of the Church, and opposing it's leaders who (if one believes Church Doctrine) have been selected by God through the working of the Spirit to attain their positions of leadership. Such a stand could conceivably lead others to take similar positions, which would endanger their souls in a grave manner. Is this also not a sinful act? There have been cases in the past where opposition to the teachings of the Church and active dissension with the Church hierarchy has led to excommunication. If the actions of a public figure drive others away from a close relationship with God and into a position where they are more easily swayed by Evil, I would guess that it would be held against them when Judgment falls upon them.
141 posted on 08/26/2008 6:16:57 PM PDT by chimera
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To: sitetest

We are actually stating the same thing, but you believe one way and I believe the other.

Remember this
>>You see it differently and until some action is taken, we really don’t know the answer.<<


142 posted on 08/26/2008 6:21:27 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: chimera
Dear chimera,

There is no question that the actions of these politicians are gravely evil. Assuming the other attributes of mortal sin, these politicians are mired in it.

“There have been cases in the past where opposition to the teachings of the Church and active dissension with the Church hierarchy has led to excommunication.”

That's true. With sufficient process, these politicians could eventually be excommunicated.

But I'm not sure that they incur excommunication latae sententiae by the mere fact of their opinion on abortion.


sitetest

143 posted on 08/26/2008 6:25:11 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: netmilsmom
Dear netmilsmom,

“...but you believe one way and I believe the other.”

Actually, I don't believe one way or the other.

It is an unanswered question. Being unanswered, I hold neither position.

And I think that it's appropriate that Catholics should be cautious in advancing the view that these folks are excommunicated latae sententiae. It's been stated as uncontroverted fact on this thread and others. It shouldn't be.

If anyone wishes to say, “My OPINION is that they are excommunicated latae sententiae,” that is within his competence. But it is not within the competence of any lay Catholic to state it as fact. Not without the clear guidance of the competent ecclesial authorities.


sitetest

144 posted on 08/26/2008 6:31:07 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

I believe that I am right in the way that I read those documents. Therefore until the ruling comes down that says otherwise, I will go with Mother Angelica’s way. She slammed Altar Girls until proven wrong by the Vatican. Then took her place in support of that ruling.


145 posted on 08/26/2008 6:40:02 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: netmilsmom
Dear netmilsmom,

“I believe that I am right...”

The fact that you say it in that way shows that that is your opinion. You should say as much when you make the claim.

There are posters here wondering what is the actual position of the Catholic Church. If folks don't identify their opinion as just that, and assert it as the formal position of the Church, then that's misleading.


sitetest

146 posted on 08/26/2008 6:45:40 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

Like I said, I’ll handle it like Mother Angelica. If you would like to follow me and put your opinion of the whole situation, please feel free.

The documents speak for themselves.


147 posted on 08/26/2008 6:51:08 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: netmilsmom
Dear netmilsmom,

“The documents speak for themselves.”

The documents do speak for themselves, but you haven't shown at all that they say what YOU say they say. In fact, strictly speaking about Canon 1398, it would seem that it does NOT apply to pro-abort politicians.

If you want to assert your position as objective fact, you should at least make some effort to support it with a logical argument on behalf of the assertion.


sitetest

148 posted on 08/26/2008 6:55:15 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Patriotic1; Bosco
And her Bishop has spoken:

Breaking: Pelosi's home archdiocese republishes USCCB statement

149 posted on 08/26/2008 7:05:05 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sitetest

I did. I posted the documents.


150 posted on 08/26/2008 7:06:16 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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