Posted on 09/24/2008 7:26:36 PM PDT by the_conscience
I am a Protestant who loves many aspects of the Catholic Church. However, I must be frank ... to many outsiders, it appears, more than ever, to be the haven of timid, retiring intellectuals and perverts. If you are concerned about the image, this needs to be addressed pronto. (of course, image isn’t everything.)
(1) The incorrect accusation of Protestants that the Catholic Church teaches salvation by works.
(2) The incorrect doctrine of Protestants that the Scriptures teach salvation by faith.
(3) The insufficient realization by Protestants that the Scriptures teach salvation by grace through faith.
(4) The fact that the Catholic Church and the Reformers have essentially different views on how God's grace operates in the life of the soul.
The result is the odd phenomenon of the Protestant who simultaneously believes that grace operates through the simplest formulation of monergism and that his personal decision to claim Christ as his savior is efficacious.
Why would any Catholic give a fig what a Protestant thinks of our Church? Let them go to their meeting halls and follow the Men who founded their sects (Luther, Calvin, et. al.)
Protestantism: Every Man a Pope.
Who cares what their ‘credentials’ are? They have their sect; why do they care to write about the One, True Church?
I don’t know, perhaps you should ask that of the Catholic poster and the Catholic author of the posted article. I’m just giving my two cents on the proclaimed topic of the post. You guys have some work to do on the image thing.
Discipline has been inexcusably lax - particularly at the diocesan level.
Not really; who gives a Fig what a Protestant (you included) thinks of our Church? And, BTW, why would you have an opinion? I don’t give much thought to your sects.
Actually, the accusation is sacraments and works. The most pernicious error being ex opere operato.
(2) The incorrect doctrine of Protestants that the Scriptures teach salvation by faith.
Reformation Protestants teach salvation throughfaith, not by faith, salvation is by Grace, through faith, because of Christ.
(3) The insufficient realization by Protestants that the Scriptures teach salvation by grace through faith.
That was the foundation of the Reformation.
(4) The fact that the Catholic Church and the Reformers have essentially different views on how God's grace operates in the life of the soul.
That is a correct statement.
The result is the odd phenomenon of the Protestant who simultaneously believes that grace operates through the simplest formulation of monergism and that his personal decision to claim Christ as his savior is efficacious.
You're confusing orthodox Reformational Christians with 'free-will' Protestants. It's an oxymoron to claim a Reformational Protestant believes in decisional regeneration.
I have an opinion on lots of stuff. Opinions are fun. Why are you so bent out of shape?
yawn.
False nonetheless.
True, but on the other hand perhaps the image problem is caused at least as much by the darkening of society than by the corruption of the Church. Clergy used to be admired for their wisdom and leadership, now they are admired for their entertainment value.
The Catholic Church was famously described by Joyce as "Here comes everybody". The Church has all sorts, including but not limited to, "timid, retiring intellectuals" (oh, the horror!), as well as perverts (which is fine as long as they recognize perverted activity as a sin and strive to overcome it). If you are talking about the priesthood, I think that the criteria have been tightened up in recent years for the better (at least on the practice and advocacy of perversion front).
You know what I like about you, Pet? I can set my watch by your unsupported assertions.
I think you underestimate the negative effect the timid, retiring intellectuals have on the image of the church. The boy who never went to a high school dance and now seeks the comforts of the robe in order to escape having to face his sexual demons or support his own livelihood ... not fair, agreed, but it is the image nonetheless. Remember, to outsiders, the Priests and Nuns are the Church.
In reality, nowhere close to true. We have our fair share of tepid sorts and those who abuse position. That's just reality. Our leadership is in the midst of transition by attrition (unfortunately). The not so hot bishops are slowly being replaced with orthodox ones (who aren't liked by the "intellectuals") as they retire. There's a number of other things going on.
One thing that I came across somewhere along the line is that after a council - any council and there have been 22 - for about 50 years, chaos happens. We're in the last 10 years of the chaotic cycle. Things are tightening again, although not at the same rate everywhere. One direct result of this tightening will be the evolution of more stereotypes. Oh, well.
So you’re talking about the priesthood. I would agree that pastors of parishes should preferably be active, outgoing, stand-up men, but there is a need also in the Church for intellectuals and theologians, and I think the main criteria of priests is that they are orthodox and holy. I detect an anti-intellectualism in your comment that I must reject. I also would not agree that timid, retiring and intellectual automatically means engaging or advocating sexual perversion. That is a different issue entirely.
No, no anti-intellectualism in me at all ... rather I think true thinkers choose the life because they find it exciting and dynamic. They aren’t driven to it out of fear. Most of the most brilliant people I know are also the most charming. A lack of charm is a sign of a lack of wisdom in my book.
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