Mary Unites Christians, Cardinal Tells Anglicans (Pilgrimage to Lourdes Called a Miracle)

ZNA ^ | September 25, 2008 | Inmaculada Álvarez

[Kolokotronis]

“Your posted picture and quote is a very telling example of this heresy.”

Odd that no Christian believed that for the first 1500 years plus of The Church's existence and only a very small minority, a minority outside The Church, believes that today. Am I to conclude that the HS has done a singularly lousy job of protecting The Church from heresy, fwd?

In any event, here is the dogma, proclaimed in 433:

"We profess therefore that Our Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, is true God and true man, constituted by a body and a rational soul: that He was engendered by the Father before all time as to His divinity, and as to His humanity, was born of the Virgin Mary in time for us and for our salvation; that He is consubstantial with the Father in His divinity, and consubstantial with us in His humanity; for one union was effected by the two natures, and we acknowledge only one Christ, one Son, one Lord. Because of this union, which is free from all admixture, we also acknowledge that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God {Theotokos}, because God the Word was made flesh, was made man, coalesced with the Temple (His humanity), which He took from Her."

The Church and The Fathers of the Council of Ephesus were quite aware of scripture.

[fwdude]

First, by “HS” I assume you mean the Holy Spirit, and not “high school” as some uninitiated might misunderstand it. May I then abbreviate Mary to VM or MOG? Or would that be disrespectful?

The fact that heresy has plagued the “Church” is only too obvious to need explanation or example, and the Holy Spirit cannot be left holding the bag. He has preserved truth, even if it seemed a small spark in times of almost universal darkness, in the most unlikely places and among the most unlikely people, not always of the “Church” properly, but of the Church spiritually. Mankind is exceedingly capable of extrapolating sound doctrine into the most heinous error, even by many of those that you venerate as Church Fathers.

And no, the Church (those universally united to Christ by the Holy Spirit through faith) does not believe that Christ proceeds from Mary, continues to proceed from Mary, and is contained, supported by, and is conveyed to men through the conduit of Mary, as your doctrine and your artwork depict.

[Kolokotronis]

"May I then abbreviate Mary to VM or MOG? Or would that be disrespectful?"

Sure, though the usual abbreviation is "BVM". :)

"And no, the Church (those universally united to Christ by the Holy Spirit through faith) does not believe that Christ proceeds from Mary, continues to proceed from Mary,..."

The Church does not believe that Christ "proceeds" (what a lousy English translation of "εκπορευόμενον" which refers to the Holy Spirit, not Christ, BTW)from anyone. Christ is "τόν Υιόν του Θεού τόν μονογενή, τόν εκ του Πατρός γεννηθέντα πρό πάντων τών αιώνων. Φώς εκ φωτός, Θεόν αληθινόν εκ Θεού αληθινού γεννηθέντα, ού ποιηθέντα, ομοούσιον τώ Πατρί, δι’ ού τά πάντα εγένετο.(And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all aeons, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, being of one essence with the Father;)"

"...and is contained, supported by, and is conveyed to men through the conduit of Mary, as your doctrine and your artwork depict."

Wherever do you get your theology and what you believe, apparently sincerely, is the theology of The Church?

[Bobsvainbabblings]

From the Catholic prayers I have seen posted here and on links provided it is not hard to see there are prayers to Mary and the Saints as well as petitions asking them to pray for the individual.

 

The prayers to Mary or the Saints proclaim that they have some power to answer that prayer which would place them in the same category as God.

 

This from post #2 is such a prayer. "May our Blessed Mother heal the rifts that divide us and lead us all to her Son, Jesus Christ. "

 

You are declaring she has supernatural power. To deny that is folly. We only have to changes two words to prove it. 

 

May our Blessed Father heal the rifts that divide us and lead us all to His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

The difference between these prayers it that the second one has a chance to be answered. The first is just wasted words and time because Mary does not have the ability to answer prayers and God only answers the people who ask him.  
 

Prayers to Jesus are the same. That is why He specifically tells us to pray to His Father in His, Jesus', name. Only the Father can provide supernatural answers to prayer.

 

Asking Mary or a deceased Saint to prey for you goes far beyond wether or not that person can or cannot hear you.

 

The Catholics claim this is no different than asking a fellow living Christian to pray for you. I would hope that when you ask someone to pray for you, you explain the reason for the request so they are praying your will. If you don't, you are asking them to pray their will on you. You have given them control of your spiritual life which borders on demonic.

 

It is no different when asking Saints to prey for you without direction. The Rosary is a prime example of that concept. You say one Our Father, which is scriptural, and then ten Hail Mary. You ask the Father, as Jesus taught, and then you turn your spiritual life over to Mary by asking her to pray for you with no direction. Her will, not God's

 

You give Mary ten times more control of your spiritual life than God the Father with each decade. Who is preeminent?

 

This compounds every time you say the Rosary and when a Priest orders you to recite multiple Hail Mary as a penitence after confession. He has you turn your prayer life over to Mary and away from God as a punishment for your sins. Makes no sense to me but it must to you or you would reject this false teaching. BVB 

[Dutchboy88]

I’m out for a couple days. More thinking and then I’ll get back to you.

[thefrankbaum]

No worries - I look forward to it. Could you just shoot me a FReepmail when you post your reply, just to make sure I don’t miss your ping? Thanks!

[Dutchboy88]

Okay, I’ve had a few days to mull your answer over. The great majority of what you have written here is based upon RCC tradition. That makes it nearly impossible to dispute, not because it is therefore automatically true, but because once your organization commits it to tradition, that puts it on par with the Scriptures and, in your world, irrefutable.

So, I purpose the following: While I am not persuaded that purgatory exists, nor that “speaking” to the dead is appropriate, I will continue to listen to the discussion. And I am still trying to connect how Mary could possibly “unite” Christians (which sounds like an active verb upon a passive object) without acting into history like God. This seems very troubling, if not nearly blasphemous.

Nevertheless, the ambition to have unity and asking God to bring that about, seems very appropriate. To that end, I will pray directly to God.

And as for the “Saint” explanation, I am still puzzled. Peter calls all of the folks he wrote to (the believing diaspora) “saints”. The Scripture notes that we are all saints, if we belong to Christ. This separate class, again seeming to arise only in RCC tradition, appears to be absent in Scriptures.

[Lady Heron]

Gad, what a joke. Guess he has no understanding of Protestants (protesters of the Catholic Church) believe. Might want to figure that one out before making such statements.

[servantboy777]

I’m not seeing scripture that supports asking Mary to do anything.

This is taken from extra-biblical writings that were not deemed in sink with the message included in the bible, thus it could be interpreted as NOT being spiritually guided into the compilation of books that made up the bible.

The catholic church worships God in such beautiful ways, but some of the catholic churches theology kinda troubles me.

Also, the church needs to do a better job dispelling superstitions within the church, such as planting a statue of Joseph on the grounds of a home to help it sell.

Seeing Mary on a piece of toast and then catholics flock to the site to just be in the presence of the toast.

I’m really not making fun, it just disturbs me to see that kinda stuff.

[thefrankbaum]

Okay, I’ve had a few days to mull your answer over. The great majority of what you have written here is based upon RCC tradition. That makes it nearly impossible to dispute, not because it is therefore automatically true, but because once your organization commits it to tradition, that puts it on par with the Scriptures and, in your world, irrefutable.

I am sympathetic to that point. It makes it very difficult to have a discussion amongst Catholics and Protestants. The way I see it, it is analogous to interpreting the Constitution. Yes, you can get a long way looking solely at the text, but the whole of the document comes to light when you look at the English Law it is based upon, the early documents of the Founders, etc. But I digress, since that is not the basis of this discussion.

So, I purpose the following: While I am not persuaded that purgatory exists, nor that “speaking” to the dead is appropriate, I will continue to listen to the discussion. And I am still trying to connect how Mary could possibly “unite” Christians (which sounds like an active verb upon a passive object) without acting into history like God. This seems very troubling, if not nearly blasphemous.

That is fair. Listening with an open mind is all I could ask for. It is something sorely missing on this forum, on both sides. Speaking to the "dead" - did you have any thoughts on my point re: Angels? Before I continue on that idea, I'm curious as to your thoughts. Regarding Mary (for if it is appropriate to speak to her, it is appropriate to speak to the others currently present in Glory with Christ), she cannot act into history. I understand your concern, and if she was or if that is what we sought, it would be indeed blasphemous. However, our faith holds that Mary is the most righteous creation of God - what other human has been so blessed as to physically carry Him into the world? Meditating on that reality blows my mind. Carrying God!

Now, if the prayers of the righteous are especially powerful, who is more righteous than her? Christ, certainly, but He is God. No one gets to the Father except through Christ. But how do we (and others) get to Christ? Asking Mary to ask God to bring all Christians together is no different than you or me asking Him - it is still his action. But, I believe Mary carries a lot more weight with Him than I do.

And as for the “Saint” explanation, I am still puzzled. Peter calls all of the folks he wrote to (the believing diaspora) “saints”. The Scripture notes that we are all saints, if we belong to Christ. This separate class, again seeming to arise only in RCC tradition, appears to be absent in Scriptures.

We Catholics don't do a good job explaining the difference between what we mean by "saint" and "Saint." The latter is the former, but the former isn't the latter. Anyone who belongs to Christ is a "saint." We agree with that. We don't believe you truly belong to Christ until your work here is done - free will allows us to turn against him. Thus, when we discuss saints, we mean those with God in Heaven. "Saints" are just those we know are there - it is a conformation of the fact that God has saved them. If you want to discuss that process, I am happy to - trust me, the bar is very high.

[raygunfan]

YOU:

I’m not seeing scripture that supports asking Mary to do anything.

SCRIPTURE ASKS US TO PRAY FOR EACH OTHER, ASKING MARY TO PRAY FOR ME ISNT AGAINST SCRIPTURE.

This is taken from extra-biblical writings that were not deemed in sink with the message included in the bible, thus it could be interpreted as NOT being spiritually guided into the compilation of books that made up the bible.

WHAT BOOKS ARE YOU REFERRING TO? THE COMPLETED CANON USED SINCE THE FIFTH CENTURY? PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHICH EXTRA BIBLICAL BOOKS YOU THINK ARE BEING USED.

The catholic church worships God in such beautiful ways, but some of the catholic churches theology kinda troubles me.

SUCH AS?

Also, the church needs to do a better job dispelling superstitions within the church, such as planting a statue of Joseph on the grounds of a home to help it sell.

CONFUSING GOOD TRADITIONS OF SAINTS WITH SUPERSTIITIONS IS A BIT OF A STRETCH.

Seeing Mary on a piece of toast and then catholics flock to the site to just be in the presence of the toast.

SORT OF LIKE WHEN OUR LORD’S FACE APPEARED ON THE CLOTH THAT MARY MAGDALENE HELD TO HIS FACE....AND IT ISNT TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE TOAST, IT IS IN MOSTLY CURIOSITY.

I’m really not making fun, it just disturbs me to see that kinda stuff.

PERHAPS YOU SHOULD FIND OUT MORE RATHER THAN CRITICIZING.

[Dutchboy88]

Your response is well-reasoned and presented. Give me a few days to ponder these various matters and I’ll be back...again. Grace be with you.

[thefrankbaum]

Thank you my FRiend. I look forward to hearing from you. Pax Christi!

[servantboy777]

>>PERHAPS YOU SHOULD FIND OUT MORE RATHER THAN CRITICIZING.”

Perhaps you should relax and re-read my post. I was not criticizing.

There is no prohibition at all in scripture in regards to prayers to Mary or asking Mary to pray for you, however there are no scriptures to that effect.

This is leading me to believe this was NOT a common practice within the early church.

Protestant Christians hold fast to 1 Timothy 2:5 regarding the one true mediator between God and man. This is indeed scriptural.

I was referring to the Apocrypha as the extra biblical text.

What is beautiful about your worship? Holy Communion is one very reverent way to worship. The liturgical calender is full of opportunities to worship our Lord.

I was not confusing anything at all. I am simply sharing experiences in my life regarding catholics doing and saying things that are NOT scriptural. I have not witnessed any church leaders attempting to correct some of these “ologies” Sorry if that felt confusing to you.

Regarding people seeing Mary on a piece of toast comment, it is just one example of the many where catholics flock to the scene to seek a miracle of some sort not simple curiosity. Sorry if that disturbs you.

Some of this stuff really does look like idolatry.

[Dutchboy88]

Okay, my FRiend (clever you are), I have pondered two matters you noted. First, the super-effectiveness of Mary praying to God on your (or my) behalf, since she likely has more pull that we would. Second, the concept of Saint vs. saint.

I think we agree that Mary is now safely in the arms of her Bridegroom (meant as purely as that concept could be stated, not salaciously), and therefore she is now fully sanctified. Where do we find the need to have someone of higher ranking appeal to our Lord, if there is only One needing to intercede for me between man and God, the Man Christ Jesus? How does Mary actually improve that communication? And, does this mean that Mary is in some sense Omniscient or at least All-seeing? Does RCC tradition teach that the dead are in some sense sitting in a stadium watching the earth? What are their limitations? If you use the Hebrews text to support this (”...surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses...”), I have a grave disagreement that this broad interpretation fits the intention of the writer.

Second, the S vs. s. You are the first RCC I have been in contact with that acknowledges that there is “s”. But, what I cannot catch, is whence cometh the need of “S”? This is not outlined anywhere I can find in Scriptures, so is this again a product of “tradition”? I don't question that your organization has set a high bar, but that doesn't demonstrate that it is appropriate. The whole matter of elevating some via human observation does not seem appropriate. If the end result of these inquiries are simply, “Trust us, we are the final authority because we are the final authority.” then, I will respectfully disagree.

[thefrankbaum]

Please excuse me - I plan on responding soon, but I want to give your reponse the proper attention it deserves, and I do not have time to do such right now! But, I certainly will, I promise.

[Dutchboy88]

You spent a good deal of time trying to convince me that you don’t pray to Mary, but rather ask her to pray to God for you. Now, the Pope has a Prayer to Mary where he put the “...world in her hands.”

POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

Read the thread yourself; it is on FR. This sounds an awful lot like a request for her to exercise her “power” over the world and influence the affairs of men directly. “Help us.” “Have pity on us.” I am now sensing that you led me down a rosy path. If you were not aware of this perspective as the official position, why did you tell me that this was the way you Catholics viewed Mary? If you did know it, then why smear the edges? Disappointed.

[narses]

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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

[wagglebee]

Gad, what a joke. Guess he has no understanding of Protestants (protesters of the Catholic Church) believe. Might want to figure that one out before making such statements.

If the Archbishop of Canterbury did not have a a devotion to the Blessed Mother I doubt that he would have made a pilgrimage to Lourdes. He hardly went in "protest."

[RJR_fan]

"There is reason to hope that Our Lady will help us overcome the present difficulties in our relations, so that with the help of God we will be able to continue our common ecumenical pilgrimage," he continued.

Step right up, folks, and make your choice! And behind this door, we have deity A, who we on earth can invoke for divine aid. And behind the other door, we have deity B, who we can also invoke for divine aid. It's equally valid to appeal to either! Also the goddess might be more approachable than the Creator ...