Posted on 10/18/2008 10:06:35 AM PDT by Publius804
You wrote:
“Do actual soldiers fighting and dying in Europe count, if they happened to be Protestant?”
No, because they didn’t fight to save Jews. Most soldiers in the allied armies had no idea that Jews were being murdered in huge numbers. That’s why they reacted with the horror that they did when they discovered the camps.
“How about the taxpayers that made it possible, do they count - or do they not by virtue of being Protestant?”
Again, the taxpayers knew little or nothing about Jews being murdered by the millions. That’s why they were so shocked when it came to light.
Yes, I did.
Let me ask you this way if you are a Christian does that make you a saint?
It depends. There are some who claim to be Christians who do not have standard Christian beliefs.
My same question is if the Church does not recognizes them are they still saints?
I'm sure I answered this previously, in #63. Do you keep asking the same thing in the hopes of getting a different answer?
Are there saints outside of the RCC?
Sure, there are many. And many are recognized by the Catholic Church, like those who are Eastern Orthodox.
“No, because they didn’t fight to save Jews. Most soldiers in the allied armies had no idea that Jews were being murdered in huge numbers. That’s why they reacted with the horror that they did when they discovered the camps.”
Oh, so the American soldiers that fought and died in Europe did so in vain, unless, of course, they were Catholic, Jewish, or happened to be Protestant with awareness and fighting to free imprisoned Jews.
The rest of those guys (including taxpayers) were what, just schmucks?
Your ingratitude surpasses even Iraqi proportions.
So this is what we agree on? A saint is a saint made by God even if the Church does not recognize them.
If a person is a saint, they are a saint.
You wrote:
“Oh, so the American soldiers that fought and died in Europe did so in vain, unless, of course, they were Catholic, Jewish, or happened to be Protestant with awareness and fighting to free imprisoned Jews.”
Nope. They didn’t die in vain. They just didn’t fight to save Jews because they didn’t even know they were being murdered. Again, that’s exactly why the US and other allied troops were shocked when they saw the camps. A fact you skipped over. If the allied troops knew that the Nazis were murdering millions of Jews, then they wouldn’t have been shocked to discover the Nazis were murdering millions of Jews. But they were shocked because they knew nothing about it.
“The rest of those guys (including taxpayers) were what, just schmucks?”
Nope. They were just taxpayers - patriotic American taxpayers who didn’t know that the Nazis were murdering millions of Jews and they were shocked when they discovered that was the case.
“Your ingratitude surpasses even Iraqi proportions.”
I expressed no ingratitude nor do I feel any ingratitude. The simple fact is that American Protestants, British Protestants, etc. fought and died to destroy their nations’ enemies - just as every American and British soldier did. They did not fight and die fighting against the Nazis to save Jews whom they didn’t even know were being murdered in their millions.
You can pretend all you like that Protestant soldiers had clairvoyance and knew that the Nazis were murdering millions of Jews, but that simply isn’t the case. Nor is it ingratitude on my part to point out that obvious fact.
Now, if you can post evidence that all of those Protestant soldiers knew the camps existed before they discovered them, and that those soldiers knew the Jews were being murdered in their millions before they actually uncovered the evidence of that, well, then you might actually have a leg to stand on. As it is, you’ve got nothing.
A Saint is a Saint whether man recognizes them or not.
What is up with you? In your previous post, you asked me a question, i.e. "So this is what we agree on?" and I answered. Now you are asking me to answer again. What's up with all the repeat questions? Quit beating around the bush and just get to your point and get it over with.
“Now, if you can post evidence that all of those Protestant soldiers knew the camps existed before they discovered them, and that those soldiers knew the Jews were being murdered in their millions before they actually uncovered the evidence of that, well, then you might actually have a leg to stand on. As it is, you’ve got nothing.”
If you can post evidence that whether they knew it or not beforehand, Protestant soldiers who freed the Jews don’t deserve every bit as much gratitude as any other soldier, we might have a discussion. As it stands you are making some pointless stand for who knows what reason.
I think the Jews freed from certain death in Nazi concentration camps didn’t terribly care about the religious background of their liberators. Apparently you do.
You wrote:
“If you can post evidence that whether they knew it or not beforehand, Protestant soldiers who freed the Jews don’t deserve every bit as much gratitude as any other soldier, we might have a discussion.”
No. I never said that Protestant soldiers don’t deserve gratitude for what they did do. I said that they did not fight the Nazis to save Jews but to defend their respective nations - and that is irrefutable. You can keep trying to twist the thread all you like. We were talking about Pius XII - not soldiers. You brought up soldiers in post #76. And you have been twisting and turning ever since. Pius XII saved 860,000 Jews.
“As it stands you are making some pointless stand for who knows what reason.”
No, I am simply stating facts. Soldiers fought for their countries. The average American soldier was not fighting the Nazis to save Jews and did not even know the Jews needed saving. You keep ignoring that point. You have to.
“I think the Jews freed from certain death in Nazi concentration camps didn’t terribly care about the religious background of their liberators. Apparently you do.”
No, I simply know that those men who freed the Jews from certain death didn’t intend to do so when they signed up for or were drafted into the service. They didn’t even know the Jews were being murdered in their millions. Those are the facts. You can continue to deny them - with no supporting evidence whatsoever of course - but your denials of the obvious will go nowhere.
And Pius XII still saved 860,000.
“No, I simply know that those men who freed the Jews from certain death didn’t intend to do so when they signed up for or were drafted into the service. They didn’t even know the Jews were being murdered in their millions. Those are the facts.”
Yes, I suppose you are right. Protestant soldiers joined the war effort specifically to not free Jews.
You really do not see how ridiculous you’re sounding.
I think what you are trying to imply is that Protestant soldiers perhaps wouldn’t have fought if they knew it would benefit Jews. Somehow, you believe that Protestantism is to be equated with anti-semitism, or even perhaps nazi-ism.
So what is it that you hate about Protestants that lead you to develop such an elaborate, yet fictitious argument?
My point was in my first post. When the perception is that the RCC makes a person a Saint then there will be slander and disagreement of that decision rather than leaving it in Gods hands. When the RCC announces that it is going to canonize a person then there will be disagreement. The RCC needs to get out of that type of non biblical practice.
People need to get out of the practice of having erroneous perceptions about the Church and educate themselves.
The RCC needs to get out of that type of non biblical practice.
Show us where the bible prohibits calling someone "saint".
Show us where the bible prohibits calling someone "saint".,br Are you a MPD?
No, it's not.
us
Us, as in those of us on this forum. So, show us where the bible prohibits calling someone a "saint".
You wrote:
“Yes, I suppose you are right. Protestant soldiers joined the war effort specifically to not free Jews.”
All soldiers in the allied armies joined to defend their countries. They did not sign up or get drafted to save Jews who they didn’t even know were being murdered in their millions.
“You really do not see how ridiculous you’re sounding.”
No, because nothing I said sounds ridiculous. Are you saying that British Protestant soldiers were drafted to save Jewish lives? THAT sounds ridiculous.
“I think what you are trying to imply is that Protestant soldiers perhaps wouldn’t have fought if they knew it would benefit Jews.”
Allied soldiers did not fight the Nazis to save Jews because they didn’t even know the Jews were being murdered. You have difficulty with this irrefutable historical fact. Why? I have no idea why you reject history in exchange for warm fuzzy myths nor do I care. Once again, allied soldiers did not fight the Nazis to save Jews because they didn’t even know the Jews were being murdered.
“Somehow, you believe that Protestantism is to be equated with anti-semitism, or even perhaps nazi-ism.”
Now that sounds ridiculous - and isn’t supported by anything I said anywhere in this thread! Listen, I realize you like to just make things up, but pulling out the “Nazi” card in this way by claiming I believe someone else was a Nazi when he wasn’t just makes you look foolish. Allied soldiers did not fight the Nazis to save Jews because they didn’t even know the Jews were being murdered. That in no way implies Nazism or anti-semitism on the part of any allied soldiers. It simply tells the irrefutable truth: Allied soldiers did not fight the Nazis to save Jews because they didn’t even know the Jews were being murdered.
“So what is it that you hate about Protestants that lead you to develop such an elaborate, yet fictitious argument?”
Nothing I believe is fictional. Nor have I said anything about Protestants that is fictional. Yet you have to create fictional beliefs about projected anti-semitism and Nazism in order to evade this simple, irrefutable fact: Allied soldiers did not fight the Nazis to save Jews because they didn’t even know the Jews were being murdered.
Remember, it’s irrefutable: Allied soldiers did not fight the Nazis to save Jews because they didn’t even know the Jews were being murdered.
And this also is true: Pius XII saved 860,000 Jews.
Sure it is all it does is bring devision naming people Saints. I said it was non biblical you said prove it no you prove that it is biblical for some organization to specifiably call bestow on some one the term Saint. The elevation of a person is noting more than a pagan practice. It is worldly in origin.
Calling someone Christian brings division; I suppose that bothers you just as much. Every time there are complaints about you practicing your faith, do you stop? No, it is not the perfect example of why the practice of canonizing a person should be done away with. We are practicing our faith the way we see fit. Just who are you to tell us to stop?
I said it was non biblical you said prove it no you prove that it is biblical for some organization to specifiably call bestow on some one the term Saint.
You are the one making the claim about Scripture, not me. I'm asking you to prove your claim.
The elevation of a person is noting more than a pagan practice. It is worldly in origin.
I suppose someone with that kind of thinking would also believe that elevating someone to be an apostle or bishop is pagan.
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