Posted on 12/15/2008 12:20:45 PM PST by STD
Actually that has not been proven by any means. Early church fathers all had a post tribulation position and THAT has been proven multiple times and is still evident today (not like any of them can change their minds now anyway) :).
The history of the pre-trib doctrine can clearly be traced back to a Morgan Edwards book in 1788, then in the early 1800s to Edward Irving from 1825-1832 where he first began teaching this ‘secret’ rapture. Darby only picked it up shortly after that and was refuted in writings from notables such as Samuel P. Tregelles (1813/1875) in 1855 and William Kelly (1811/1888) also around that time who both clearly identified the ‘Irvingites’ as those that first brought forth this doctrine.
Even after a 20 year search of early church writers, Grant Jeffrey failed to produce one actual true example of support for a secret rapture. Shamefully he did take about a half dozen quotes out of context as proof but these were quickly and embarrassingly disproved.
JB
The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. He interpreted the book of Revelation suggesting an end-time personal antichrist, a rebuilt Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem at the end of the Christian Era.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Thanks for your input. Your research sounds reasonably solid.
However, I remain convinced that key aspects of that perspective were operant in the first 100-300 years of the church.
thatjoeguy—I agree about the wall.
However, I remain convinced that key aspects of that perspective were operant in the first 100-300 years of the church.
I agree with you, that it is first century belief.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
thx BIG
LUB
NIGHT NIGHT
Thanks, I was a firm believer of the pre-trib doctrine its what I grew up with and all I knew. When it was first challenged in a article I was reading a few years ago, I was stunned. So I set out to prove and defend it, within a short time though I started to have my doubts about the pre-trib rapture and those doubts eventually gave way to the realization that its not true. I spent nearly a year of research on it, (being unemployed then I had lots of time) I’ve read thousands of pages worth of early church writers (mainly the 80-250AD era), and have yet to find any hint of it.
I honestly feel its one of Satan’s tactics to put the average christian at ease. Why study and prepare yourself if your not going to be there for the final exam.
Also look at it this way, if the tribulation did start and the warning went out, how many christians would simply not believe it because they are still here?
Jesus told us to watch, but then why watch when your expecting Jesus to come get you?
Sorry, but the more I look at it now the less it makes sense.
JB
Do you mean Manuel Lacunza who wrote “The Coming of the Messiah”? After a quick search I couldn’t find anything on Ribera except that he was a noted painter. :)
Manuel’s, who was a Jesuit priest, two volume work was translated by E. Irving in 1827 and had somewhat of your description I believe. I’ve not read the translation yet although I have copies (maybe I should start).
There is also the ramblings of a girl named Margaret or something like that as well in like 1814 or somewhere around there. I’ve read the written account of her ‘visions’ but to me their inconclusive.
JB
vain glorious PERSONAL interpretations, extrapolations, fantasies, mangled flying leaps of your imaginations or some cheeky opinion?
i THINK I understand your perspective.
Thanks for your candor.
I don’t think anyone has it all figured out.
Personally, I suspect there may be more than one ‘catching away.’
I think God has some surprises in store for all of us and certainly for the enemy.
“Wow so the wall was part of all the buildings? Now this is not some vain glorious PERSONAL interpretations, extrapolations, fantasies, mangled flying leaps of your imaginations or some cheeky opinion?”
Sorry, actually my position was that it was not part of the buildings. It is pretty obvious they were talking about the buildings and how they looked and that is what Jesus was talking about too.
I might of sent the reply to the wrong person.
:)
JB
Ah thanks but that’s just another article claiming the same thing. But it helps, I’ll do some research and see if I can’t scare up some of Ribera’s writings (translated I hope :) ) and go from there. I knew of M. Lacunza as I’d mentioned but not of Ribera.
Cool, now I have something else to look up. Its kind of a fun hobby of mine.
JB
I agree, its pretty clear that the understanding of the end times is still not so clear but, as we get closer I believe more and more will be understood.
One thing I’ve come up with lately is the feeling as I study, that I don’t think the tribulation (the full 7 years as its generally called) is going to come in with a bang like so many think. Other then Daniel giving an indication of its beginning all other prophecies point to the middle as to what to watch for. I find that interesting to say the least.
Also, this adds to the point I mentioned earlier that, if few are truly watching and most don’t believe they’re even going to be here anyway and on top of that it doesn’t ‘start’ like everyone thinks its supposed how will the news of its commencement be taken?
I know that’s alot but look back at Christ’s first coming as an example. The OT is full of the prophecies pointing to (among other things) the virgin birth, the city of his birth, His miracles, and so on and so on and the very people who were supposed to be watching first of all didn’t ‘get it’ and second of all thought he was a heretic and successfully had Him killed.
To me that speaks volumes.
JB
I think
your points are well stated and well taken.
My 55% bias or whatever is that we are likely to know when the 7 years begins because the AC will become widely known at that time. I think before he’s widely known—particularly in a role as a world leader—then I think we’re not yet in the real thing.
However, the BIRTH PANGS are likely to be dramatic enough . . .
Some quiet fierce believers hereon believe we may already be at least on the door-step if not in the vestibule of the Tribulation.
THERE WILL BE a CATCHING AWAY/RAPTURE . . . whatever that is and whenever it is.
A lot of the naysayers about that seem to try and dismiss the whole thing wholesale. Not Biblical.
Hey there, I had gone to that link you supplied (thanks again) and found something interesting. The first link I came to had the information about Ribera which was nice (still gonna look into that for referencing in the future) but what I found interesting was that the article also claimed that the seven year trib was also a false doctrine and that it is never mentioned in early church writings. Knowing personally that it was taught/written about in early church writings I shot the author an email about that giving both Irenaeus and Hippolytus as examples of cases where it was talked about.
That’s the first I’d heard about that one. Just curious what you thought.
JB
agreed.
STILL having horrific computer problems. Not sure when it will be bootable again . . . [after 20+ tries at reformatting, reinstalling etc]
much less online.
God’s best to all who love Him.
“STILL having horrific computer problems. Not sure when it will be bootable again . . . [after 20+ tries at reformatting, reinstalling etc]”
Off Topic sorry, but have you checked your hardware and memory? If you’ve wiped your HD and you still have problems you’ve probably got a hardware issue.
HTH
JB
GATEWAY TECH SUPPORT CONCLUDED THE SAME THING.
Sending a new motherboard which should be here Wed.
Thanks for your kind reply.
Wait Marylin Agee again hasn’t she predicted this several times and it never came to pass.
Wait Marylin Agee again hasn’t she predicted this several times and it never came to pass.
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