Posted on 12/31/2008 4:38:01 AM PST by Huber
1 Cor 1:17 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
1 Cor 1:14 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
It would appear by these statements that Paul was against salvation since he came not to baptize and was happy that he had not baptize certain people. Why would they canonize the bulk of the New Testament letters to a person who did not equate salvation and baptism together and was happy they had not baptized many?
The context in 1 Cor. 1 is that everyone is baptized in the name of Jesus. The irony is that if they were baptized by St. Paul, then, he rhetorically concludes, they’d think that he, Paul, is the head of the Church.
That Paul sees his role not as a baptizer but as preacher is in keeping with his intellect and temperament; he is not against people getting baptized at all.
"Fundamentalist" is a rather peculiar term. It doesn't apply to a particular denomination, and is somewhat nebulous in its definition, being narrow or overly general depending on the intent of the person invoking it. As an historical Protestant I certainly don't subscribe to the view of being "born again" that is ascribed to "fundamentalists" yet would likely be considered one by most ill-informed Roman Catholics.
To be sure, there is a gross misunderstanding of the Roman Catholic Church among so-called Western Protestants, and that is largely because they are defined as "protestant" more by the fact they are not Roman Catholic than any significant semblance to historical Protestantism and because they haven't the foggiest notion of the actual doctrinal points which separate us.
I do find it ironic that you attribute this phenomenon to some measure of denial though considering the obvious denial involved in constraining this view to North American Protestantism (your definition of "fundamentalism" notwithstanding, of course). The fact is that the Protestant form of Christianity continues to spread throughout the world.
Happy New Year!
Poor analogy. The "man who was directly appointed by the son" was not present when the "johnny-come-lately" came on the scene.
The core issue is what you place your faith in: the Scriptures themselves or the earthly institution that claims to have a monopoly on truth.
Kinda like claiming to have met a vision of the Virgin Mary, not the physical person/being? I guess that invalidates the experience by your criteria, eh?
The Scriptures are clear regarding Saul's encounter with Jesus Christ. You appear to be intent on going to great lengths to undermine any notion of Paul's position as an Apostle simply for the sake of promoting your views at all costs. It's truly unfortunate.
WRONG. Saint Luke, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, stated that Saul was directly spoken to by Jesus Christ Himself. To dispute this fact is to undermine the Scriptural authority and reliability of both the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles.
Tell you what...why don't you produce for us some official Roman Catholic teaching stating that Saul never actually met Jesus Christ but rather only claimed to have met a vision of Him.
Acts 2:36-38 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peter preached the Holy Spirit brought conviction then Peter said repent be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit.
Without conviction and repentance their can not be the baptism of water and Spirit.
How many do you know followed that prescribed order?
Definitely, baptism is connected to penance. What is your point? We all agree that penance is salvific as well, no?
No...Pennance is not salvific...Repentance is salvific...Pennance is works...Repentance is faith...
No one in the scripture ever got saved with baptism alone...People do however, get saved with Repentance, alone...
Did Christ or did He not choose Peter to be His representative? Did He or did He not state Peter would be the rock upon which His church will be built? Did He or did He not state that which Peter binds on Earth, will also be bound in Heaven?
Let me be kind and refer to Saul, not as a fraud or as a tool of Satan to divide the early church but as a sincere individual who believed he experienced a vision of Jesus. How does Saul differ from Joseph Smith? Perhaps mohammed?
That is the failure of the protestants. They would mock saints, the Virgin Mary and ritual yet accept, willingly and blindly, the gospels of monarchs, disgruntled clergy and executioners. They mock relics and the Rosary but worship the Bible. There is the Church, the appointed heir of Christ, then there is pretend Christianity.
I don't worship the Bible as an object...I worship the Word contained therein because it is the Word of Truth. I don't set it upon an altar and kneel before it. I don't perform solemn rituals in its presence. I certainly don't look for imprints of my Bible in pieces of toast! :)
I have no interest in the "Christianity" you espouse when it involves wanton dismissal of the words of an Apostle just to suit your paradigm. I'm sorry Paul was bold enough to rebuke Peter when he was clearly wrong. Get over it. Cling to Christ, not to Peter.
And that my good correspondent is how we shall leave it.
Enjoy a Blessed New Year.
Thanks. You too.
>And they don’t accept the fact that the word “alone” was added to the Bible in the phrase, faith “alone” by Luther.
>Look it up.
And then, dear Salvation, look up the other luminaries of the ekklesia that ALSO added the alone.
Here let me help you with your fallacy:
The Roman Catholic writer Joseph A. Fitzmyer points out that Luther was not the only one to translate Romans 3:28 with the word “alone.”
At 3:28 Luther introduced the adv. “only” into his translation of Romans (1522), “alleyn durch den Glauben” (WAusg 7.38); cf. Aus der Bibel 1546, “alleine durch den Glauben” (WAusg, DB 7.39); also 7.3-27 (Pref. to the Epistle). See further his Sendbrief vom Dolmetschen, of 8 Sept. 1530 (WAusg 30.2 [1909], 627-49; “On Translating: An Open Letter” [LuthW 35.175-202]). Although “alleyn/alleine” finds no corresponding adverb in the Greek text, two of the points that Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him.
Robert Bellarmine listed eight earlier authors who used sola (Disputatio de controversiis: De justificatione 1.25 [Naples: G. Giuliano, 1856], 4.501-3):
Origen, Commentarius in Ep. ad Romanos, cap. 3 (PG 14.952).
Hilary, Commentarius in Matthaeum 8:6 (PL 9.961).
Basil, Hom. de humilitate 20.3 (PG 31.529C).
Ambrosiaster, In Ep. ad Romanos 3.24 (CSEL 81.1.119): “sola fide justificati sunt dono Dei,” through faith alone they have been justified by a gift of God; 4.5 (CSEL 81.1.130).
John Chrysostom, Hom. in Ep. ad Titum 3.3 (PG 62.679 [not in Greek text]).
Cyril of Alexandria, In Joannis Evangelium 10.15.7 (PG 74.368 [but alludes to Jas 2:19]).
Bernard, In Canticum serm. 22.8 (PL 183.881): “solam justificatur per fidem,” is justified by faith alone.
Theophylact, Expositio in ep. ad Galatas 3.12-13 (PG 124.988).
To these eight Lyonnet added two others (Quaestiones, 114-18):
Theodoret, Affectionum curatio 7 (PG 93.100; ed. J. Raeder [Teubner], 189.20-24).
Thomas Aquinas, Expositio in Ep. I ad Timotheum cap. 1, lect. 3 (Parma ed., 13.588): “Non est ergo in eis [moralibus et caeremonialibus legis] spes iustificationis, sed in sola fide, Rom. 3:28: Arbitramur justificari hominem per fidem, sine operibus legis” (Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone, Rom 3:28: We consider a human being to be justified by faith, without the works of the law). Cf. In ep. ad Romanos 4.1 (Parma ed., 13.42a): “reputabitur fides eius, scilicet sola sine operibus exterioribus, ad iustitiam”; In ep. ad Galatas 2.4 (Parma ed., 13.397b): “solum ex fide Christi” [Opera 20.437, b41]).
See further:
Theodore of Mopsuestia, In ep. ad Galatas (ed. H. B. Swete), 1.31.15.
Marius Victorinus (ep. Pauli ad Galatas (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15-16: “Ipsa enim fides sola iustificationem dat-et sanctificationem” (For faith itself alone gives justification and sanctification); In ep. Pauli Ephesios (ed. A. Locher), ad 2.15: “Sed sola fides in Christum nobis salus est” (But only faith in Christ is salvation for us).
Augustine, De fide et operibus, 22.40 (CSEL 41.84-85): “licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intellegatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur” (Although it can be said that God’s commandments pertain to faith alone, if it is not dead [faith], but rather understood as that live faith, which works through love”). Migne Latin Text: Venire quippe debet etiam illud in mentem, quod scriptum est, In hoc cognoscimus eum, si mandata ejus servemus. Qui dicit, Quia cognovi eum, et mandata ejus non servat, mendax est, et in hoc veritas non est (I Joan. II, 3, 4). Et ne quisquam existimet mandata ejus ad solam fidem pertinere: quanquam dicere hoc nullus est ausus, praesertim quia mandata dixit, quae ne multitudine cogitationem spargerent [Note: [Col. 0223] Sic Mss. Editi vero, cogitationes parerent.], In illis duobus tota Lex pendet et Prophetae (Matth. XXII, 40): licet recte dici possit ad solam fidem pertinere Dei mandata, si non mortua, sed viva illa intelligatur fides, quae per dilectionem operatur; tamen postea Joannes ipse aperuit quid diceret, cum ait: Hoc est mandatum ejus, ut credamus nomini Filii ejus Jesu Christi, et diligamns invicem (I Joan. III, 23) See De fide et operibus, Cap. XXII, §40, PL 40:223.
Source: Joseph A. Fitzmyer Romans, A New Translation with introduction and Commentary, The Anchor Bible Series (New York: Doubleday, 1993) 360-361.
Even some Catholic versions of the New Testament also translated Romans 3:28 as did Luther. The Nuremberg Bible (1483), “allein durch den glauben” and the Italian Bibles of Geneva (1476) and of Venice (1538) say “per sola fede.”
-—From here: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html
Did you read this far? I am impressed. Now please allow yourself to take that little line of argumentation out of your apologia, thanks. Martin Luther contra Magisterium? No, actually he agreed with much of the earlier Catholic Church. I would say that the Catholic Church changed its tune when its authority was questioned and looked for anything to hang on the poor ex-monk.
Besides which, soon your church is going to change its mind (again) and make him a saint, praise ecumenicalism! I wonder, how many candles is the RCC going to light to him? I REALLY wonder how they are going to justify anathematizing him and then taking it back.
And I would like to apologize for the tone of the last post. It was smacking of sarcasm, and that is something which is not God glorifying.
Sorry, that “Look it up” comment sparked it. I humbly ask you to do the same.
Paul was called out by our LORD himself to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. That is why Paul always refers to himself as “the Apostle to the Gentiles”.
Peter, James and John approved his message.
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
***Saul never met Jesus.***
Yes he did, on the road to Damascus and in the Temple.
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
Act 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Act 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
***How does Saul differ from Joseph Smith? Perhaps mohammed?***
Paul’s message was accepted and approved by the Apostles...
Act 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
Act 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought [him] to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
Act 9:28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem.
And again...winning freedom from Circumcision for the Gentile believers...
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
And again...
Act 21:18 And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
Act 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.
Act 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood,
***Peter preached the Holy Spirit brought conviction then Peter said repent be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit.
Without conviction and repentance their can not be the baptism of water and Spirit.
How many do you know followed that prescribed order? ***
We do know by reading that Cornelius the Gentile was given the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was baptized. Peter even asked his fellows if they could forbid Cornelius to be baptized, and later had to defend his actions before the elders at Jerusalem.
Look at what point in Peter’s address that the Holy Spirit fell.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
This one act throws all the baptismal demands for salvation into a cocked hat.
The point of the question asked was what does born again mean and it involves repentance. Therefore baptizing people who have not repented is a baptism in vain. Repentance is a changing of ones ways, and the only way one can truly change is through the power of the Holy Spirit in the new birth. The changing does not save one so as you said penance is salvific our actions do not save us it is the grace of God by the power of the Holy Spiritand the new birth. If one could work their way into heaven then there would be no need for the work of the Cross and the sacrifice of the true Lamb of God.
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