What (the movie) ‘Doubt’ Is About

NCR ^ | January 1, 2009 | Tom Hoopes

[NYer]

An interesting contrast of view from a ‘younger’ generation (i.e. post VCII) Catholic.

[netmilsmom]

>>If they were so wonderful, why did they respond to a pope and Council’s decrees by walking out en masse? <<

Because everything Catholic was taken away within ten years.
This kid gets it wrong. They didn’t walk out “en masse”. They leaked away as the Kumbaya Catholics took over and feminized the church.

They were told that touching the Eucharist with their teeth was wrong, within a few years, holding it your hand was okay.
The Priest was facing the tabernacle was done because Jesus was there. Suddenly, it didn’t matter anymore and we all had a “meal on a table”

Etc, etc, etc.

I’m too young to remember the Latin Mass, but my parents were traumatized by it all. Kids have no clue.

[JoeFromSidney]

I haven't seen the picture, and probably won't, yet as one who grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church (but attended public schools), I knew there was rot already there.

The book THE CARDINAL, which traces the career of a fictional priest from ordination to the Red Hat, written prior to VC II, shows some of that rot already there.

Yes, I think VC II did more damage than good (if it did any good at all), but that doesn't alter the fact that there was a lot of rot in the church before that. The Church is full of human beings, and we're all sinners. That's bound to be reflected in the way people in the Church act. Read any of the letters of St. Paul, and you'll see that there was already rot in the 1st Century.

[Ghost of Philip Marlowe]

Have you ever read “The Church Impotent” by Podles?

It's a study of the feminization of the Christian church in America. Very interesting reading.

[Secret Agent Man]

How about: It is an artsy-fartsy make-work project for stars that have faded a bit, and it allows them also to take a bunch of shots at groups that have their own problems. Hollywood is the last set of people that should be criticizing anyone else. Hell, they haven’t made a movie that portrayed religion in a good light since the Father Flanagan movie in the 40s.

[livius]

The rot was definitely there, but it didn’t affect the Mass or the sacraments, and it was the radical changes introduced into Catholic practices by Vatican II that drove Catholics out the door.

The rot was in doctrine and authority; there were many priests and bishops who were actually extremely liberal and many of them who rejected the authority of Rome, although until Vatican II they were secretive about this and rarely dared to express it openly. After Vatican II, they didn’t feel any need to hide their opinions anymore and they simply went into open rebellion, for which they were congratulated by the press and academy. The real revelation was when they simply rejected Humanae Vitae - with no consequences to them. As faithful Catholics saw the wolf revealed, they were scandalized and fled the Church and these people were left virtually unopposed.

[kidd]

I think Vatican II was poorly implemented. A radical change like Vatican II should have been accompanied by strict quality control measures and significant instruction to parishioners.

Prior to Vatican II, many people went to Mass out of guilt/tradition/obligation, not celebration of the Eucharist. That didn't change after Vatican II because people didn't understand why the changes were made. All of the efforts to connect the Mass to the parishioners were lost. But the changes that were made were abused by those who had their own agenda...leading to Liberation theology and other nonsense.

I think just as many people would have left the Church had Vatican II not been implemented.

I personally prefer the Mass in the vernacular, but I am appalled at some of the abuses that Vatican II allowed.

[netmilsmom]

I’ll have to look it up.

But I can tell you that as soon as men are made important in a parish, it grows by leaps and bounds.
Take out the handholding, the female EMHCs and Altar Girls and you see it grow.

We have no problem getting Altar Boys or Ushers. My daughter and I are lectors but you will not see a woman on the Altar after the Liturgy of the Word.

And we have popped out new priests every year.

[Incorrigible]

Generation X Catholics like me were taught by the hippie Catholics in CCD. It wasn’t until I went from a public grade school to a Jesuit High School before there was any rigor in my religious education. And I’m still learning today. Alas, my WWII generation parents (had me late in life) did not attend Mass regularly. I went by myself after Confirmation.

I think about the Catholics my age that did not get a genuine education in their faith. It doesn’t surprise me that they became CINOs. Nor does it surprise me that they fell away because they didn’t understand the value of the Church, its history and the compassion of the people involved in it.

[Desdemona]

One review said that this is basically not an anti-Catholic movie. Not having seen it, I can't say and wouldn't try, but I don't know that we who are of the post-VatII generation can make much of a judgment of what life was like before the council and whether or not a fictional rendition has any truth to it. Was there rot? I'm sure there was and the more I learn about some things that were allowed to happen in this archdiocese, the more I know that a certain red hat who was archbishop was well-versed in the art of PR.

Things weren't all what they seemed, that's been established. just keep in mind, not just now, but if there is another council on the horizon (please, God, can we wait a few centuries?) that after EVERY council chaos happens for about 50 years. I came across that somewhere and it makes all the sense in the world as we are 6-7 years away from that mark and things are starting to resemble some sort of normalcy. Not everywhere, I understand, but as men like Francis Cardinal George demand kneelers in the seminary chapel and Archbishop Chaput gives an unyielding line on life and seminaries become fully credited, pieces are gradually being put back together.

[netmilsmom]

>>I think just as many people would have left the Church had Vatican II not been implemented.<<

You make tons of sense. VII needed much more education before it was actually implemented. However, while I agree that just as many may have left the church, I don’t think it would have happened as quickly as it did, as in a generation.

The reason I say that is because if one looks back to the times, they were tumultuous anyway. In the middle of it, the Church did a massive change and the liberals ran with it. When one questioned any change, one was dismissed (and that I DO remember). Because of that, people felt marginalized. As it went from bad to worse, no one stopped a thing. If they did, they were basically told, like it or lump it. The politics came in. The Lectors and EMHCs became “just a little better” than Pete in the Pew. They acted that way too. So why bother to show up?

As the liturgy looked more and more like a Lutheran service, Catholics felt nothing like nothing special. For the devout, they lived with it. For the doubting, they left.

People may not have gone to “celebrate” the Eucharist but they did go to be with Our Lord and receive grace. The problem became the “celebration” and the total lack of reverence felt by the people who went to adore and not celebrate.

[Desdemona]

We have no problem getting Altar Boys or Ushers. My daughter and I are lectors but you will not see a woman on the Altar after the Liturgy of the Word.

And we have popped out new priests every year.

We've produced a lot of seminarians, too. When you think about it, though, the Cathedral has multiple seminarians there on the weekends and at least one sacristan at any one time. It's so cute to watch them teach the boys to serve. I think they start them at 4th grade, but there's always a "shepherd" with these little boys in cassocks and surplices following him around. And there's an added bonus - when you use incense all the time, they get to play with fire.

Seriously, the girls only serve one Mass and the boys have High Mass to themselves and it makes all the difference.

[Rumierules]

Hell, they haven’t made a movie that portrayed religion in a good light since the Father Flanagan movie in the 40s.
___________________________________________

Chariots of Fire (1981) might have been one.

[Desdemona]

Generation X Catholics like me were taught by the hippie Catholics in CCD.

Ass a gen X Catholic who went to Catholic schools, I can tell you that Catechisis was dumbed down everywhere and the larger culture played more of a role than not. No, we did not get a genuine education in the Faith. And I don't think the people who were supposed to be passing it down were interested in teaching it, either.

[netmilsmom]

>>Seriously, the girls only serve one Mass and the boys have High Mass to themselves and it makes all the difference<<

I think that makes a difference too.
It makes boys feel special.

And I say this having two daughters and no boys.

[Non-Sequitur]

I’ve seen the play and am looking forward to the movie.

[netmilsmom]

>>No, we did not get a genuine education in the Faith.<<

That’s still going on.
Before I came to this parish, my daughter learned “God made the flowers and God made the trees” There wasn’t much about being Catholic.

[red irish]

Just what the world needs another movie to throw aspersions on the Catholic church or any other Christian faith. I have become so disgusted with Hollywood and anything that comes out of it. I wish someone would make a movie about the true lives of Hollywood,of course it could be more like a remake of Sodom and Gomorrah.Isn't that what Hollywood does remake of anything or part 2,3,4? How many women in Hollywood have had mutiple abortions,killing of their own children,how many gay men have been leading actors with women,Rock Hudson. We really need a true in your face movie of the sinfulness of Hollywood. Not only is Hollywood so sinful but they evangelize their evil religion of love of self all over the world. This is one of the reasons why the Muslims have no respect for the West,ya I know how they are but looking at it from the point of view of the spreading of evil in the sense of the praise of sin that comes out of Hollywood and the fact that they have so much money and so much adoration that people just want to be like them.I mean I could understand how Muslims would think negative of the West the way women flaunt their bodies and sex is more like a game of spin the bottle. We as Christians were taught that our bodies were the temples of the holy spirit not a cauldron for sexual diseases and abortions.But how many Christian support Hollywood financially which they in turn send money to support Obama. They tell our children abortion is ok especially have sex with anyone at any time,look at teachers today that can't keep their hands off of their students.And then we have Angeline and Brad Pitt who commit adultery and then begin to go all over the world adopting children having children out of wed-lock because they want to wait until everybody can get married,gays.And Hollywood can't sing enough of their praises and all of the wonderful things they have done. Or maybe why not mom marrying son or the man who loves his dog? Once the gates open it will be a fight to see who can get married or what will no longer be an institution of marriage.Or by Christian's as a sacrament. But wait we already have so called Christians and so called Christian churches marrying gays or having their Bishops be openly gay. But isn't the political dream of the gay community to force the churches to accept the sinfulness of homosexuality by making sure they have to marry them? No tolerance there. But we as Christians should make sure if what we really want is to live a life of the gospel or just accept what comes out of Hollywood and the support of it. We must make our Christian leaders accountable for what they say and do in the name of Christ. It makes sense of what is going on with the global economy we as nations are rotten to the core and collapsing from within from greed and pretty much from all the deadly sins. Let's pray for God to have mercy on us and live the lives of the Saints.

[Desdemona]

One of my siblings and I told our mother about the dismal religious education we received and she felt so bad. And the really sad thing is, if Mom had known, she would have raised cain. I don't know that it would have done much good, but I think parents really realized how bad the religious education was.