Posted on 01/15/2009 9:50:50 AM PST by NYer
.- A new survey of denominational loyalty reports that churchgoing Catholics are significantly less likely than churchgoing Protestants to change denominations.
Six out of ten active Catholics would only consider attending a Catholic church, while about 30 percent would prefer attending a Catholic church but would consider others, the survey says. Eleven percent of churchgoing Catholics reportedly do not show a specific preference for attending a Catholic church.
By contrast, only 16 percent of Protestant churchgoers will only consider attending a church of their present denomination. About 51 percent express a preference for one denomination, while 33 percent do not have any preference for a specific denomination.
Phoenix-based Ellison Research released the results of the poll on Monday.
“The good news for the Catholic church is that six out of ten Catholics will not even consider attending church in any other denomination, which is far higher than for Protestants. The bad news, of course, is that four out of ten active Catholics would at least be open to another denomination, even though most would prefer to remain in the Catholic Church,” commented Ron Sellers, president of Ellison Research.
The survey of a representative sample of 1,007 American adults included 471 respondents who regularly attend worship services at a church broadly considered to be in the Christian tradition, categorized into Protestant, Roman Catholic, Mormon, and Orthodox.
Respondents who attend worship services at least once a month were first asked the specific denomination of the church they attend most often. This distinguished “Southern Baptist” from “Free Will Baptist,” for example.
The respondents were then asked what role that denomination would play if they could no longer attend their current church, in the case it closed or the respondent moved.
Sellers explained that there may be additional factors affecting the difference between Catholic and Protestant denominational loyalty.
“It’s not as though there are two hundred different Roman Catholic denominations,” he said. “On the Protestant side, there are scores of different denominations, with some of them fairly similar in practice and theology.
“The story of this research is that many Protestants may not see a lot of difference among some of these denominations,” Sellers said.
For comparison, Ellison Research asked Americans about their loyalty to certain brands in more than 32 categories of products and services. Respondents expressed between about 10 to 20 percent exclusive loyalty to brands like automobiles or toothpaste, while between about 60 to 70 percent reported a brand preference.
Respondents were especially loyal to toothpaste, with 22 percent saying they use one brand exclusively.
“It may not be lack of loyalty so much as it is the presence of so many options that is causing Protestants to be about as loyal to a brand of toothpaste or bathroom tissue as they are to their church denomination,” Sellers remarked.
Among all churchgoing respondents, three out of ten said they would only consider attending one denomination, while 44 percent said they have one preferred denomination but would also consider others. Eleven percent reported a small number of denominations they would consider.
According to the survey results, denominational loyalty does not vary significantly by gender, household income, age, or type of community. It does vary by race or ethnicity and by region of the United States.
Hispanic churchgoers, who are majority Catholic, are the most intensely loyal to their denomination. African-Americans reportedly have the least denominational loyalty.
Denominational loyalty is highest in the Northeast U.S., where Catholicism is more common than elsewhere in the country. Such loyalty is lowest in the South, where Catholicism is less common.
People who report attending a non-denominational church, the Ellison Research survey says, are actually more committed to remaining non-denominational than churchgoers in Protestant denominations are to staying within their denomination. About 29 percent of non-denominational churchgoers will only consider a non-denominational church, while 32 percent express a preference for a non-denominational church.
Yep....reads right over the "and not by works" like it isn't even there.
Yes it is catholic teaching, but no it does not teach works based salvation. Let me bold the two parts that should make that clear to whoever wants to accept what God wrote here.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:8,9)
It is not >> by grace you have been saved through faith and works.........but through faith.
Salvation is what? A gift of God! Receiving that gift is through faith and faith alone. God did not forget to include works in that statement.
To argue against that is utter foolishness. But you are free to play your religious game with God if you want to, in spite of God spelling it out for you.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. ουκ εξ εργων ινα μη τις καυχησηται
First, there is no "have been". It is plain passive tense, "you are saved". Nowhere does the scripture refer to salvation as an accomplished fact prior to judgement.
Second, "that" in "that not of yourselves" refers to grace, not to faith. Grace is the gift of God. It is grace, therefore, that is "not of works". You can drop the dependent clause "through faith" and the grammar still holds: that is because it is grace that is of God and not of works. This verse teaches the Grace Alone, the correct, Catholic doctrine.
Yup. But, one verse (taken way out of context) in James is the foundation for misguided doctrine. “Not by works” from the mouth of Christ — God the Son — is trumped by “ The Church.”
Funny, too—Luther gets the bad finger for all of this just because he blew the whistle on selling indulgences to rescue souls from a non-existent place. No where in scripture do I find ANY indication of Purgatory; yet, again, “The Church” trumps God’s Word again and claims—no, exclaims—it’s reality.
I also cannot find any indication that
we are to pray to ANYONE other than God. Yet, the saints, Mary, Joseph, and countless others apparently rate the same worship as God. The whole “adoration” thing doesn’t fly either.
For my soul’s sake, I will always go with God’s Word over man’s falleness.
OK...We'll pretend you guys believe what God clearly says about Creation in Genesis...
oyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy vey.
But don't worry...We're here to straighten you out...You are mis-reading this following verse...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Everyone who is saved in the church can only be saved by the grace of God...The Grace comes from God...Is there anything we must contribute to the salvation process??? The verse tells us right out what we must contriute...
Does the verse say we must contribute good works??? Nope it don't...Does it say we need to get baptized??? Nada...It says FAITH...It only says FAITH...Grace comes from God...We provide the faith...
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 7:21, many similar, esp. Luke 6:45-47)
Would you care to show us (in scripture) what the will of the Father is???
It's interesting that you find a scripture that says faith and works is needed for salvation...You like that one...So that's the one you chose...
You find another verse that says works only is required for salvation...Apparently you don't like that one...You say that one doesn't apply to Catholics...
And of course there's the one you ignore, the one in the epistles to the Christian church that says salvation is by faith, only...And you don't even acknowledge that one...
So how did you pick out which one you were going to follow???
Plenty of them. Re-read my posts.
No where in scripture do I find ANY indication of Purgatory
Have you looked? Have you asked? Purgatory is wholly scriptural. Indulgences are fine, -- one can get them now. Selling them is not good; that was a mistake the Church promptly corrected.
Yet, the saints, Mary, Joseph, and countless others apparently rate the same worship as God.
Have you asked? Have you studied? What is "apparent" to you, as we have seen on this thread is mostly myths.
Why, yes. Faith and good works. Eph 2:8-9, the same passage you pretend to be reading.
the epistles to the Christian church that says salvation is by faith, only
Which one?
annalex,
Please note — I indicated that I was not going to respond to any more of your threads, but I will for this one to point out that when you started with invective we were done. If you will note, my response was not to you. Please do not direct any more responses to me. You have accepted your view and are not going to be swayed. For that I’m sorry. But, please — do not insult me by stating such things that what I have indicated to you from Scripture are “myths.”
And yes, I have asked. I have searched the Scriptures. And the result? What I found was that there is NOTHING there that supports these dogmatic rituals.
So, as before, we must agree to disagree. I wish you well.
Hoss
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Well, that puts you about 180 degrees away from what God tells us...
When you or anyone make public posts, I respond as I see fit.
What I found was that there is NOTHING there that supports these dogmatic rituals
What rituals? We were discussing faith and works in salvation, and I made my case fully and scripturally. If there is a "ritual" you want to discuss next, please be specific, and if you don't want anything directed at you, don't open up new subjects.
Grace is not of works, and works done for soacial reward (boast) are not salvific. The Catholic Church agrees.
Faith and good works [are needed for salvation]. Eph 2:8-10, the same passage you pretend to be reading.
Verse 10 points to the necessity of works, not 9.
So now you claim God is a liar! He gave His Son and gave His gift of salvation. That is His grace nailed to the Cross.
It is through faith, not through faith and works.
And "not through works, that no annalex should boast."
You reject the grace of God by adding your works to His gift and then have the arrogance to claim you are on God's side of salvation. God's grace was on the cross where He was nailed and died for your sins and your works adds nothing to His finished work on the cross...and His GRACE, not yours, by your works. You favor a religious man made doctrine over the amazing gift of God and expect to spin your way into heaven. Yea I know purgatory!
The sign above the door to purgatory, reads Hell. You cannot accept God's gift of salvation but have to prove yourself through your works, which is the rejection of God's gift of salvation. Very sad! You show your pride and unbelief and then boast of it. Which fits the, "so no man would boast" of the truth God has in this scripture.
Other Catholics here please read that scripture and decide what you will have. God gift or a religions works? You cannot have both because one cancels out the other as this scripture plainly states. Your eternity depends on it. Many other Catholics have chosen God's gift of salvation. Annalex I will pray for you.
If you think the scripture teaches different, cite the relevant scripture. I did. Naked declarations of what you think is right do not interest me.
The sign above the door to purgatory, reads Hell.
I am not sure if there is a sign, but if there is one, it would read Heaven Ahead, because that is where those entering Purgatory end up. Souls in Purgatory are saved souls on the way to Heaven.
I have given the scripture in Eph 2. There are others but this one is enough, as I have seen you work here before twisting in and out of this and that scripture leaving bunny trials and no soundness of scripture behind. You are good at it, but you don’t fool this old saint.
Then you give a naked declaration of what you think is right regarding Hell ...excuse me what you call purgatory and without the relevant scripture. We can go there if you can ever show proof of salvation by works from God’s word, which you have not even touched yet.
Purgatory is a process of purification of the soul that occurs when the soul is justified (saved), however is still burdened by aftereffects of absolved sin. The purifucation is necessary because we know that nothing impure can enter heaven (Apoc. 21:27). It is not spelled out in scripture, however, the passage to reflect upon is
8 ... every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour. 9 For we are God's coadjutors: you are God's husbandry; you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
(1 Cor. 3)
What is described here is a trial that a man undergoes at time of judgement; all imprefectionsi n him are burned off, but he is saved in the end. That is the doctrine of Purgatory.
I posted relevant scripture regarding the role of works in salvation; please review my #80 on this thread.
I went to a funeral Tuesday, the son wouldn’t allow his Catholic mother to have a Catholic Mass. He stood up and touted his great religion, how he has gone from Fundamentalist to Pentacostal to Evangelical and he still hasn’t found the right place but it was obvious that he didn’t see the stupidity. He might as well have said that he hasn’t found a faith home that believes exactly the way he wants to believe and who cares about the truth.
Like I said, you do greatly ERR...
We DO correctly respond to Grace by reaching a FAITH in Jesus Christ...We DO NOT however, repond to Grace with good works...READ THE VERSE...
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Having Faith, we become a New Creature...We are created in Jesus Christ (and He in us) unto good works...The good works are from God as a result of our Faith in Him...
When you see a Born Again Christian doing good works, it is Jesus working in him...NOT him doing the work for his benefit/salvation...
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