Posted on 01/15/2009 9:50:50 AM PST by NYer
Excommunication is a big deal now.
The fact is, any serious sin excommunicates just by its nature and therefore condemns the sinner to hell. In order to reenter into communion with the Church one needs to go to confession and repent of his sin.
Public excommunication is necessary when the sin is grave, the sinner is obstinate in his sin, and it is public. That is so because it then causes others to sin similarly. Typically, that is done to heretics, — people who teach stuff contrary to the dogmas of the Church.
Note that this is done for the benefit of the sinner as well as for the benefit of those he might lead into sin. The excommunication draws his attention tot he gravity of his offense and hopefully, will lead to him recanting of his error and restoring his communion.
That's not just true of Protestants. (But you probably didn't mean to imply that it was.)
Having just been through RCIA as a convert, I can tell you that the Chuch does NOT teach that. The Church’s position is that all Christian denominations have some portion of the truth, but the Catholic Church is the repository of the total truth. Salvation and damnation are left to God.
Welcome home, Miss Marple.
I joined 3 years ago this spring, and my husband (a life-long Methodist) followed me the next year.
We love the Church.
This verse teaches that we are saved by grace alone. It does not teach that we are saved by faith alone; in fact it teaches that both faith and good works are gifts of Divine Grace. That is the Catholic teaching.
I’ve been both too, and no, they don’t. :-)
Larray, larray. You just never knew the secret, larray.
It'll be there when you come back.
It’s no use — as the old saying goes, “none so blind as those who refuse to see.”
Hoss
My sight is good enough to read what’s written.
For by GRACE are you saved through... what?
Bueller?
Bueller?
For by GRACE are you saved THROUGH FAITH.
Talk about spin!!! My goodness!
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Hoss
But not through faith alone. Read much?
Not really...For many Protestants it's no different than Catholics trying out other Parishes because they are unhappy where they are at...Numbers look good tho, don't they...
HuH??? No willpower at all...Besides, a Bible Believer has no other choice...
Okay. What was a difference of opinion has now seen you start making rude comments. But, I’ll play one last time:
How about “No one comes to the Father but by me” — where’s the works? You come to the Father through Christ by faith.
Or, how about John 5:24 — “Truly, truly I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come to judgment, but has passed from death to life.” Where are the works there? Sounds like “hear”, “believe” — f-a-i-t-h.
Oh.. and here’s another little goodie:
John 6:37 ff: “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” Again, I ask: where are the works? This is Christ speaking!!! God the Son - he says NOTHING of works. Belief. Belief is an act of faith.
And a tad farther down in vv. 43-47: “Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me-not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.” God the Father draws those who will believe to Christ. Those who believe on Christ are saved — have eternal life. Again, where are the works required? Belief. Faith.
John 11:25-26 — “Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” Do you? If you do, you believe in Christ, you don’t do good works. Again, “believe”...not work. Faith
John 12:44 to the end of the chapter. Pretty straightforward.
All of John 17 — the High Priestly Prayer — of which, note vv. 20-21 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you that they also us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”’
—’...believe in me...” — where are the works??
So. Not that it will make any difference, although I hope and pray that the Lord will open your eyes, there are but a few of many, many scriptures that specify the Gospel — which we ALL need — that describes how we are saved. It is by grace of God the Father, through faith in Jesus Christ. Not through any works.
I hope you can see that one day.
I will not be responding to any further replies.
Hoss
Typos — should be...
So. Not that it will make any difference, although I hope and pray that the Lord will open your eyes, these are but a few of many, many scriptures that specify the Gospel — which we ALL need — that describes how we are saved. It is by the grace of God the Father, through faith in Jesus Christ. Not through any works.
Than what, to be a Protestant? Do you mean you can't be "bible believer" and be a Catholic? We're not going down that dead-end road, are we? Hint: it's sheer ignorance. You might want to spare yourself the embarassment if that's where it's headed.
There are, by the way, several passages that refer to salvation and do not mention faith at all, but only mention works. For example, here Jesus specifically warns against the faith-alone mentality:
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 7:21, many similar, esp. Luke 6:45-47)
In the parable of the rich ruler (Luke 18:18:30) the question "who can be saved?" is answred directly. Faith is not mentioned. The definitive passage on salvation is, of course, Matthew 25, where first a parable of the talents is told -- a direct call to good works -- and then the scene of judgement entirely based on good works is presented:
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
(Matthew 25)
Faith is not mentioned at all.
So what is an honest student of scripture conclude of it? Follow Luther's example and start a work-salvation church of his own? That would be as much an error as Protestantism is an error. The scrpitural truth is what the Church always taught: that both faith and works of love are necessary for salvation. Works done for a temporal reward, or works done out of obligation, or works of Jewish law such as circumcision do not count for salvation. Works done out of kindness, in love of God and the neighbor contribute to salvation greatly. Likewise, faith that is purely declarative, proclaimed rather than fruit-producing does nothing for salvation, but faith well formed by the disciplines of obedience and self-denial contributes to salvation greatly as well. In fact, works reinforce faith and faith motivates works, -- the two are inseparable, and both are the result of divine Grace. That is the Catholic teaching, for all ages, contained in the Holy Scripture.
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