Posted on 01/26/2009 4:21:09 AM PST by The Ignorant Fisherman
As we read in Seven Years to the Day (Part 2), Almighty God has determined 70 Weeks or 490 years for the nation of Israel: 1) To finish the transgression; 2) To make an end of sins; 3) To make reconciliation (atonement) for iniquity. These events have been fulfilled. The remaining events which will be fulfilled in the the last week of the 70 will be; 4) To bring in everlasting righteousness; 5) To seal up the vision and prophecy; and 6) To anoint the most holy place (Daniel 9:24). This last week of 7 years (the 70th Week of Daniel) is also called the Great Tribulation Period, the Age of Lawlessness, the Day of Wrath, and the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. Each and all of these titles do not suggest pleasant things to come. As a matter of fact, this Last Week of Daniel's 70 will be the most horrific episode ever experienced in the world since time began.
(Excerpt) Read more at theignorantfishermen.com ...
OK, I’ll bite. To avoid bringing other doctrinal differences, I’ll limit my analysis to the points you’ve made, even if I seem to be feigning ignorance.
1. Why switch from NEB to KJV? That’ll immediately raise credibility issues since it makes it look like you’re fishing for data that will support your hypothesis. I don’t have NEB available, but from I don’t see how the King James version of that verse can be translated as what the NEB gives.
2. Make the case that the Messiah of the 70 weeks is the son of perdition. The anointed one of Daniel 9:24 is holy! Read: “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”
3. The dragon, the beast and the false prophet are all Satan?
4. “for that matter even un-believers, other religions and Atheists would not embrace anyone claiming to be GOD at this point and time in the world.”
No? Refute this assertion form G.K.Chesterton: “Those who believe in nothing in the end will believe anything.” How many pseudo-Christians, pagans and atheists hail Obama as a Messiah? What if he actually performed miracles? I think you’re closer to the truth with this statement: “because a Man who could perform miracles on earth, bring PEACE to a world that was left with Un-believers would now be looking for GOD.”
5. >> This mystery of iniquity will be revealed when he comes as an anointed one, and claiming to be the savior of the world. <<
I believe this, but you haven’t started to make that case.
I don’t think you’ve begun to make your case.
I’m sorry. I can plainly see the Second Coming in those passages, but not any futurist rapture distinct from the Second Coming. Do I need to drink more kool aid?
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. (1 Cor. 15)Note the saints are raised at Christ’s coming (not rapture). There is no time between Christ’s coming for His saints and “the end”, the consummation of the kingdom, according to this passage. Or have the futurists invented yet another gap?
Drink some more kool aid. Maybe that will help. :-)
Sorry, never did really like it... :-)
>> My friend,... no offence...but man do you miss it. good rebuttal though and alot of truth to your critic. but...You have to see things through the eyes of biblical despensationism. <<
In that case, your argument is totally, utterly, completely demolished.
>> I have 1000’s hours in God’s Word <<
Yes, and if you’ve been sticking to false presumptions, you can spend 100,000 more hours, and still be wrong.
Any thoughts?
Because of Daniel’s revelations as stated in the articles.
He starts with unbelief and then an anti despensational stance.. lol..
Hey topcat, you might enjoy this site:
http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/Definitions/Def_Pretrib.htm
Don’t let the title fool you. The guy is NOT a pre-tribulationist.
I’d be interested in your take.
Nope, I’m post trib.
JB
I believe that the first act on the Day of the Lord will be the rapture. This is the end of the trib of course but technically before the wrath which IS the Day of the Lord.
JB
He seems to be, he just redefines the term.
"According to the Bible's definition of the great tribulation, a pre-tribulation harpazo occurs anytime before Israel's persecution starts at the abomination of desolation. ... It was also after finding Luke 17:24-37, that I realized that when looking at the scriptures themselves, a pre-wrath harpazo was more apparent and fitting with the whole council of God. I think the main problem between all the different viewpoints is the fact that their harpazo timing revolves around "tribulation." How you define "tribulation" changes your perspective on the harpazo because your harpazo is labeled in direct relation to the tribulation, pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. It is imperative to define what "tribulation" you're talking about."
This sounds like the Marvin Rosenthal view. Regardless of what he calls himself, any futurist rapture scenario that separates the “catching up” from the Second Coming is fundamentally flawed.
The “lol” does not make your comments sound any less arrogant. For over 1800 years the Church had absolutely no notion of a futurist pre-anything rapture. It seems to me to be the height of arrogance to come along and claim that the saints got it wrong for almost 2000 years. Same claim as the Mormons and JWs, BTW.
>>Regardless of what he calls himself, any futurist rapture scenario that separates the “catching up” from the Second Coming is fundamentally flawed.<<
I sort of agree with that except I believe we are talking about the spiritual realm. Think “back to the future in the very beginning where one second he is about to plow into a fotomat and the next, he is knocking over a scarecrow 30 years before.
That is, to those who participate in the two events they are simultaneous, but they are actually happening at different earthly times, to those who still dwell on the earth.
Do I believe that is what will happen? No. But I don’t buy ANY of the interpretations, even a-millennial. Fact is, nobody knows. We will be, to some degree, as confused by events as the Jews were when Jesus returned. I do not believe prophesy is there specifically to “tell the future”. I believe it is there to show Gods power, will and personality. With every single prophesy in the Bible, it is clear after the fact, but is there any case where ANYONE saw it coming before hand. Anywhere?
Even with the hundreds of prophesies Jesus fulfilled?
Two things for sure: Those who’s names are in the book of life can heed the warnings (mark of the beast, etc.), and we will know it when they see it.
ST,
also Rev 4:1 begins with come up hither...and then you hear of nothing the “church - God’s called out Assembly during the 7 sevens from Rev 6 (Rider with the white horse) to 19 (The Messiah’s 2nd coming. Just Israel and the humanity that receives the Messiah by the testimony of the 144,000 (Rev. 7:13,14) . - the two witnesses and the 144,000 and Israel’s persecution Rev 12:6,13-17,the book of Zech coincides with these passages. The seven years are all about Israel Dan 9:27.
In Daniel 9:26 we have:
“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come...”
Who is the prince? Because in verse 27 it starts out with:
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:”
The ‘he’ in verse 27 pointing back to the last person spoken of in verse 26 and that is the prince which is to come.
If your claim is that the prince is also the Messiah then when has he come?
Furthermore I don’t believe I have any presuppositions. When I read verses 26-27 I see two people talked about, the Messiah and the prince and verse 27 is talking about the prince.
JB
Yep, but don’t tell that to some others... LOL...
“Because of Daniel’s revelations as stated in the articles.”
Which articles?
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